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NeoGAF

## ProfileEdit

### Denis DyackEdit

#### Legacy of Kain: Defiance... -_-Edit

I know silicon knights developed the initial Blood Omen, and that it was good ol' Dennis Dyack that came up with the story consept, but didn't Amy Hennig write the story for that one too?
Amy had pretty much nothing to do with the story (No significant contributions whatsoever) - it was completed before she started at Crystal. She had little input on design as well.
Amy was the design manager for Blood Omen as well, obviously an integral part of the series throughout in terms of storyline and gameplay design.
Kittonwy - your claimed expertise on this subject is laughable.

Denis.

―Denis Dyack, 10-26-2006, 04:49 PM[1]
I haven't claimed any expertise to begin with. If she was listed in the credits for story for the Soul Reaver series and she was listed as design manager for Blood Omen, then I don't see why anyone would try to take credit away from her. You might as well try to take credit for the Soul Reaver games which your own company wasn't directly involved in developing, although I do find that just a tad disingenuous. I doubt Amy would have free time to come to GAF to argue with you over a game made almost 10 years ago.
:lol oh yes you have - especially in previous posts about this subject that I have browsed from time to time. And I was not referring to Soul Reaver, I was speaking of the original Blood Omen which we (Silicon Knights) created, wrote the story and did the game design. So stop with the disingenuous hypothetical garbage. When it come to the original game you are grossly inaccurately and uninformed, let’s just leave it at that.

Denis.

―Denis Dyack, 10-26-2006, 05:42 PM[2]
Is this only in relation to Blood Omen? Or does it also follow through with the following games in the series?
I was referring to the original game only here. The original concept for Soul Reaver did not come from Amy either but that is another story. Crystal took the series in a direction that we would have never taken it.
―Denis Dyack, 10-26-2006, 05:52 PM[3]
Really? Where did I explicitly state that I was the expert or guru of your precious Blood Omen? And when did I ever guarantee any of the information I post about the series is 100% consistent with what you perceive as facts from your side of the story? In addition, blah blah blah....
LOL, you are such a tool - often, implicitly in many posts. A quick search is all it takes to find a few.
Crystal Dynamics stole the the orginal idea for Soul Reaver from Silicon Knights. Thats why they went top court and got sued. the prequel to soul Reaver was made by Silicon knights.

...

Interesting how Crystal Dynamics actually were the ones who ended up basically winning the suit, they were the publisher of the original Blood Omen (and thus own the publishing rights to begin with), so I wonder if maybe SK didn't really get ripped off, given the designer manager for the original Blood Omen was the director of Soul Reaver and could have generated her own ideas and creative direction for the game. Most of the original team who developed Blood Omen isn't even with SK anymore. Maybe these people split and just went and developed Soul Reaver for Eidos despite SK and Dyack not liking it even though Dyack couldn't do anything about it, because he doesn't own the IP.
Yes they are... you could not more wrong about this. BTW - the case never went to trial it was settled...

And one more thing:

Legacy of Kain begs to ****ing differ. That being said, they know a hell of alot more than the fanboys who seem to think THEY themselves do.

Design manager Amy Hennig at Naughty Dog says hi. 11 out of 12 designers and 2 out of 3 lead designers who are no longer involved with SK beg to ****ing differ. It's high time Dyack apologists stop milking a 10 year-old game for credit in a desperate attempt at damage control.
Yah....you're clearly the expert here.

Denis

―Denis Dyack, 10-26-2006, 07:25 PM[4]
Seth Carus and Riley Cooper, then maybe, just MAYBE, QUITE POSSIBLY, that they're not with Silicon Knights anymore?
Since they were never with Silicon Knights, I think the answer would be no. LOL you're an awesome fact finder... Keep doing your credit searches - a wealth of knowledge there.
―Denis Dyack, 10-26-2006, 08:10 PM[5]
Seth and Riley both worked at Crystal Dynamics, and were sent to Silicon Knights to help them meet deadlines.
―FlyinJ
They did work at Crystal but the rest is also not accurate. Riley never came to Silicon Knights for any significant time - I think I met him once during the development. I believe he quit Crystal before we finished Kain (a year before i think) to go back to school. He also had little to do with the game. Seth did come and stay at SK for a few months near the end of the project. Saying that they came down to help SK meet deadlines is also inaccurate. Anyway, enough of this.

Just wanted to point out that Kit has no clue.

―Denis Dyack, 10-26-2006, 08:35 PM[6]

### doseEdit

#### Some Soul Reaver/Legacy of Kain newsEdit

NOT NEW GAME RELATED
NOT NEW GAME RELATED
NOT NEW GAME RELATED
―Mama Robotnik
Funnily enough, they are apparently making a new one for next gen. I know someone who is working on it. You heard it here first ;)
―dose, 08-20-2012, 10:23 AM[7]
Given the thread title, I thought THIS time it wouldn't be just a thread of info on the old games and the cancelled one, but it would be a thread about rumors/leaks of a new Kain/SR game in development.
Great thread still, but damn if I don't hate you Mama.
―Mama Robotnik
See my post #26.
―dose, 08-20-2012, 12:37 PM[8]
So it is next gen then? I know it was undecided for a few weeks.
―Acidote
I believe so, as far as I've been told :)
―dose, 08-20-2012, 01:09 PM[9]
Fuck you guys if you're just trolling. If not, holy shit. Hyped.
―Hero_of_the_Day
No trolling, that's what I've been told.
―dose, 08-21-2012, 12:40 AM[10]

#### LTTP: Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2Edit

I hope someone out there revamps the series or makes a great HD or next gen version of the classics.
―Unity2012
Next gen incoming ;)
―dose, 12-04-2012, 03:21 PM[11]

#### Square Enix registered Legacy of Kain related domainEdit

May I refer you to my post in a Soul Reaver thread from August last year...
Funnily enough, they are apparently making a new one for next gen. I know someone who is working on it. You heard it here first ;)
;)
―dose, 02-10-2013, 12:39 AM[12]
Do fucking tell. :D
―BibiMaghoo
Haha ;) I know very little more sadly, just that it's in development for next gen consoles (plural afaik), and that they were aiming for an early 2014 release.
―dose, 02-10-2013, 12:49 AM[13]
I need to know this: Will Simon Templeman and Amy Hennig be involved?
―Gsak
Honestly couldn't tell you, sorry. As I said, I don't know much more.
―dose, 02-10-2013, 12:59 AM[14]

#### Square Enix confirms new Legacy of Kain game (Nosgoth, multiplayer, not CD/not at E3)Edit

I posted about this game being in development back in August/September I think. Good to hear offical news.
―dose, 06-07-2013, 01:11 PM[15]

### Goron2000Edit

#### Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video)Edit

I work with someone who worked on this project at one point and spoke to him briefly about it.

1) The game had been in development for almost 3 years when squeenix shut it down
2) The project lead had no interest in Legacy of Kain and was quoted as saying "Soul Reaver was garbage". My coworker went on to say that the guy had terrible ideas and what they had at the end was a mish mash of poorly put together half ideas.
3) It was hot trash and needed a bullet put in it.

So i wouldn't feel too bad :)
―Goron2000, 02-26-2015, 12:05 AM[16]
Wow that's hard to believe

Any hopes for the future?

―Ahasverus
I honestly have no further information as he no longer works there and he has only brought it up once when the gameplay was leaked a few days ago.
―Goron2000, 02-26-2015, 12:08 AM[17]

### Keir_EidosEdit

#### Kain and Raziel playable in Guardian of Light.Edit

Kain looks so happy in the last pic.
―Dizzy-4U
Doesn't he. I should say, the dude that h4x0r3d the game discovered a model that isn't the final one.
So how do you unlock them ?
―LordPhoque
We are releasing some news about the character packs shortly.
Kain's smile looks hilarious in the video, too.

Cool stuff, though it is odd with the whole voices thing. Is this an actual planned download pack? Maybe they'll do something about it before it releases.

―gogojira
The videos aren't representative of the actual character packs - there will be voice acting from the original Legacy of Kain and Kane and Lynch titles (the K&L version is so ridiculous it's actually hilarious).
―Keir_Eidos, 12-02-2010, 05:03 PM[18]

### Mama RobotnikEdit

#### Legacy of Kain - Cancelled SequelEdit

Thanks to a post at the Nosgothic Realm, some interesting information has been unearthed regarding a (cancelled) sequel in the Legacy of Kain Series.

This website is the portfolio of game artist, Aaron Hausmass, who is credited as artist for 25 to Life (Eidos), Medal of Honour: Airborne (EA), and The SiN Episodes (Valve). A section of the portfolio is devoted to "LEGACY OF KAIN - CANCELLED SEQUEL". Take a look...

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_01.jpghttp://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_02.jpghttp://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/th_KainSceen_03.jpghttp://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_07.jpghttp://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_08.jpghttp://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/KainSceen_09.jpghttp://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_Statues_01.jpghttp://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_WeaponSet_01.jpghttp://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/LOK_WindowSet_01.jpg

The screenshots don't give away much. It appears to be a last-gen development using the Defiance engine. The environments are highly reminiscent of the Soul-Reaver era Nosgoth, thousands of years after the events of the other games. Indeed, this assumption fits in well with the unmade chapter of Defiance, set in Nosgoth's hellish future. Given the GUI is a blood vial, the limited information could suggest that Kain returns to his empire to try and restore the world. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

As a die-hard Legacy of Kain fan (having wrote FAQs to hack the games, and even moderated the Largest LOK community on the web in the past), it is nice to have some certainty on the series. It seems that, regrettably, the Legacy of Kain series has ended. At least Defiance provided some degree of closure to one of the greatest gaming stories ever told.

To give this topic a bit more meat, who would you like to see the LOK license passed on to? And which was your favourite game in the series?

EDIT

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/Main_LegacyOfKain.jpg

―Mama Robotnik, 11-12-2008, 01:53 AM[19]
I guess Crystal Dynamics are Tomb Raider exclusive developers now , good luck with them making anyting else .
―Totobeni
The fact that they pay the series homage whenever they can suggests that they'd like to return to the Legacy one day. I just wonder if Eidos will let them.
―Mama Robotnik, 11-12-2008, 02:51 AM[20]
More interesting information I've managed to unearth, this very second...

http://rungy.us/ is the website of Ranjeet Singhal, an animator and artist who has worked on many games, including Legacy of Kain: Defiance. A screenshot in the models section of his website shows something I have never seen before - the presence of the younger, Blood-Omen era Kain in the Defiance engine. It appears to be an improved version of the Blood Omen 2 model, with uniform inspired by Soul Reaver. An interesting curiousity this, the text says it is related to Blood Omen 2, but the environment is from a much more recent game.

http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo59/mappster131/kain_screen4.jpg

Take a look at his resume:

Legacy of Kain Ritual/Eidos/Crystal Dynamics

Director of Art and Animation Technology

Created and documented all Art Dept production processes. Worked with Crystal Dynamics to finish and ship Legacy of Kain Defiance and we did about 6 months of work on a sequel before it was cancelled by Eidos. Mostly art tech tasks here, pipeline debugging, Mel script support for character pose pasting and rig setups.
Looks like more relics from the cancelled production. Very interesting.
―Mama Robotnik, 11-12-2008, 03:54 AM[21]
I had NO IDEA what was out there for those patient enough to look. I've just hit the motherload.

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/Main_LegacyOfKain.jpg

The cancelled game was called LEGACY OF KAIN: THE DARK PROPHECY, and I've found another artists's promotional site with a ton of screenshots.http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_7.jpghttp://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_8.jpghttp://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_9.jpghttp://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_13.jpghttp://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_14.jpghttp://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_15.jpghttp://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_19.jpghttp://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/mappster132/th_LegacyofKain_20.jpg

The game seems to have been much further along than I had anticipated before it was cancelled. The premise appears to involve Kain between his Blood Omen 2 Warlord, and Soul Reaver Dark-God states.

Damn, I would have played this game!

I'm still investigating this, hopefully there is more to be unearthed.

―Mama Robotnik, 11-12-2008, 04:14 AM[22]
I saw a few of the Legacy of Kain games at Hollywood videos whilst rummaging for good trade in games... I've never played one, nor do I know much about them. Are they worth picking up?
―TommyT
The first two games in the series are among the greatest I have ever played.

Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain was one of the first games to enrapture me with atmosphere, combining a brilliant script, atmospheric music, hypnotic cut-scenes, and some truly unconventional environments. It's made in a 2D overhead view, but more realistic shades than stylised art. Though a comparison in combat style and perspective can be drawn to 2D Zelda, the game abandons any traditional formulaic approach. The world isn't what it seems, good is bad, bad is good, and everyone is a shade in between. The story is intelligent and epic, unlike any I've encountered, and backed up with the best voice acting the industry has to offer. Nosgoth is a world quite unlike any other I've ever explored, and its monsters' don't always look the part.

http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/1.jpghttp://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/2.jpghttp://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/3.jpghttp://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/4.jpgIf you (or anyone reading) can find the PC version, it lacks the PS1's unfortunate loading times and boasts superior visuals.

Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver is a game still ahead of its time today. To quote what I said in the Favourite intro movie thread:

This game was released nearly ten years ago now, one of the most ahead-of-its-time games I can think of. A truly original scenario (a world on the brink of total collapse, exloring the ruins of its dead empires), with a exploration style-of-gameplay that wouldn't be seen again until Metroid Prime was released. The game offered a superb story, and was backed up with the best voice acting the industry has ever seen.
Soul Reaver is a 3D exploration saga, which like its predecessor eschews tradition and formula. In many ways even today, the game is still ahead of its time, and was applying the mechanics of Metroid Prime before the Gamecube was a twinkle in Miyamoto's eye. That it does all this on the humble Playstation is a miracle to this day, but if you want to give it a go (and you should), seek out the Dreamcast or PC versions for better visual quality.

Soul Reaver has fantastic, intelligent combat (how do you kill the immortal?), amazing bosses, and a ruined world of secrets. It refines a two-world parallel design that has yet to be matched. It, simply put, is one of the greatest games ever.http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/a5.jpghttp://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/a6.jpghttp://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/a7.jpghttp://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/mappster133/a8.jpg

I apologise if this reads like the deluded advertising of a desperate fanboy, but this series deserves far more praise than exposure than it gets. As my avatar testifies, I am a driven fan of the Legacy of Kain.

―Mama Robotnik, 11-13-2008, 04:12 AM[23]
Sorry to bump an old topic (not to mention double-post) but I've unearthed a few more discoveries. Looking at the website of one of the LOK Series Artists' (Daniel Cabuco) I've managed to find some interesting tidbits in his portfolio.

In particular, evidence that the series was going to feature a young (vampire?) Kain, a wolf transformation for Kain, and something described as a "beast mode". Since these features have not been in any of the games (and are not listed on The Lost Worlds as cut material), I'm leaning to the idea that they were cut concepts from The Dark Prophecy.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo91/mappster74/kain_young.jpg

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo91/mappster74/KainBEAST.jpg

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo91/mappster74/Dire_wolf.jpg

"Beast mode" seems to depict Kain undergoing the devolution that destroyed his Lieutenants in the Empire. Alternatively, it could have been simply a rage-mechanic, but the reference to the wolf as a "dire" form makes me think otherwise.

Interestingly, the site also has art for a Pre-death Ariel.
―Mama Robotnik, 05-06-2009, 03:10 AM[24]
Sorry for the year bump, but I've finally been able to find some more art and information from the cancelled game.

These are from the portfolio of Jason Muck, updated after being offline for ages.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff331/mappster59/LegacyofKain_D_Wire_Shot01a.jpghttp://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff331/mappster59/LegacyofKain_D_Wire_Shot01.jpghttp://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff331/mappster59/LegacyofKain_D_MalekTunnelEntranace.jpghttp://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff331/mappster59/LegacyofKain_D_MalekBossStatue2.jpg

Please note the filenames: Malek Boss Statue; Malek Tunnel Entrance.

This seems to confirm speculation that the snowy-fortress we have been seeing is a reimagination of Malek's Bastion, the castle of animated armour, last seen in 1996 in Blood Omen.In other news, VG247 and Superannuation have found some art for another unreleased, unnanounced or cancelled Crystal Dynamics game called "Downfall".
―Mama Robotnik, 06-28-2010, 12:07 AM[25]
They should and, if anything, is actually good news for LOK since it fits an area that SE has been trying to break in for years: Action RPG
―Raging Spaniard
Considering the franchise is not recognised on Square-Enix-Europe/Eidos new homepage, I can't help but wonder if the heads of SE even know it exists.

Oh how I'd like a new game in Nosgoth, with one of those famous Final-Fantasy budgets!

Or of course give it to Amy and Naughty Dog, have them use their Uncharted tech to really bring Nosgoth's depravity, danger and decadence to life!
―Mama Robotnik, 06-28-2010, 03:44 AM[26]
Another bump, hope you don't mind.

For the interested, I've just discovered the blog of the Gaston Brothers, who worked at Ritual when Dark Prophecy was being made. Loads of concept art showing the game's reimagining of the Hylden, far more mature and dignified that their dismal Blood Omen 2 showing.

An interesting quote confirming LOK:DP was to be the concluding game in the series.
concept art done during our time at the company once known as ritual entertainment. for what was supposed to be the final chapter in the Kain series. the game was later cancelled for reasons unknown if given the chance i would work on this again in a heartbeat.-ag
And the art:

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/vampire-hunters.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain-hyldenwarlords.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain-demon.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain-demon2.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain-costumeset1.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain-character.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain-character2.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain_hyldenfemale.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/hylden_female_profile.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/hylden_female_a.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/demon3.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/demon1.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/hyldenking.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq236/mappster82/kain-characterpaint3.jpg
―Mama Robotnik, 07-05-2010, 07:19 PM[27]
The problem for me going forward with this series is that I found Raziel far more of an interesting lead than Kain. I liked Kains presence in the game, but I wouldn't want to play a game that had him as the main character.
―Widge
Raziel is an incredible character, no doubt, but Kain is much more interesting. Raziel tends to reidentify himself quite quickly with each story revelation (loyal vampire -> murderous wraith -> fallen saint -> repentant sinner -> desperate survivor -> self-sacrificing hero), whereas Kain is a complex duality of redeemer and destroyer.

Raziel's story ended perfectly, when he did the one thing Kain could not, and made a choice that made him a bonafide hero.

Its always been Kain's story (helps if you started with Blood Omen). The vampire saving the world through murder. The tyrant sacrificing his empire, his children, his everything to hunt down the perfect paradox. Even through the Raziel-focused Soul Reaver, we are being the told the history of Kain''s Undead Empire, and shown the consequences of his (not Raziel's) choices. Its Kain's story.
Kain>Raziel
―daxter01
This explanation works also.
―Mama Robotnik, 07-05-2010, 10:58 PM[28]

#### The Legacy of Kain - Remembering past games, imagining future ones.Edit

―Mama Robotnik, 07-13-2009, 02:25 AM[29]
―Mama Robotnik, [30]
―Mama Robotnik, [31]
―Mama Robotnik, [32]
―Mama Robotnik, [33]
―Mama Robotnik, [34]
Some good news - Kotaku have confimed that Soul Reaver has been rated by the ESRB for inclusion in the PSOne Classics lineup.

It will be tremendous to play it again.

―Mama Robotnik, 10-09-2009, 11:01 PM[35]
―Mama Robotnik, [36]
I love Soul Reaver, but never played any of the other games...maybe I should try one of them...or replay Soul Reaver, it's been a while.
―nny
Blood Omen is on PSN, it plays like a 2D Zelda except in a much darker, voice acted world of secrets. If you can get past the load times, its a cracking game.
I love Soul Reaver, it's easily part of my favorite games of all time.. but the others, not so much. In fact, I don't know if I would even rent them.
―Oneself
I feel that Soul Reaver 2 is buyworthy, absolutely. Its a good game. Defiance is buyworthy if you're a diehard fan, and rentworthy otherwise. Blood Omen 2 is best left unmentioned.
―Mama Robotnik, 03-14-2010, 09:15 PM[37]
―Mama Robotnik, [38]
―Mama Robotnik, [39]
A number of sites are reporting a rumour that a new Legacy of Kain is in the works.

The source is Siliconera's interview with Crystal Dynamics in which they admirably ask the vital question:

What can you say about The Legacy of Kain franchise?

Darrell Gallagher, Head of Studio: I’ll answer that one. We see the fan feedback on Legacy of Kain. There’s nothing we can talk about right now, but we can tell fans we definitely hear it.

As much as I'd like it to be something substantial, I think its a complete non-story. They've been saying similar "We can't talk about it right now" for over half-a-decade. I'm just posting it as its cropping up on a few sites, and before some unsuspecting GAFfer sees the headline and makes a thread.

In other news, here is a long lost video with footage from the never-seen often-denied never-released Sega Saturn version of Blood Omen. And in case you missed it, someone found a Pirate Ship in the game fourteen years after it came out.

―Mama Robotnik, 06-10-2010, 07:12 PM[40]
I really really want a new Legacy of Kain game, but only if Amy Hennig writes the story.
―Danielsan
Amy Hennig is the best writer in the industry. She's gifted with writing beautiful, intensely eloquent dialogue to convey rage, betrayal and pain (Soul Reaver) wonder, exploration, and manipulation (Soul Reaver 2) and loss, regret, submission and hope (Defiance). Her ideas are intelligent, the explanations of vampiric weaknesses, how temporal paradoxes form, and the dual-messiah of Defiance are complexities, conveyed with clarity.

She needs Templeman, Bell, Doyle and Jay (RIP), the best voice actors in the industry, because to have anything less for her words would be a crime.

If she's not on board then it would be regrettable. I'd risk it as long as any replacement writer was talented and proven. Care must be taken though, we don't want another Blood Omen 2 on our hands.
weird, i was just thinking about buying SR off the PSN store. i had it on dreamcast but never finished it [or remember it]. any chance it holds up well today?
―dralla
Still a very solid game. Though if you can, play the Dreamcast or PC versions for better textures or HD respectively. The PC version on maximum resolution is very nice.
The music that plays when he gets cast into the abyss is amazing.
―Danielsan
Yes it is, Its called Ozar Midrashim, by Information Society. I believe he wrote it before the game.
―Mama Robotnik, 06-11-2010, 12:04 AM[41]

#### 14 years after release, a massive explorable pirate ship is found in Blood Omen: LOKEdit

―Mama Robotnik, [42]
Is this only in the PC release or has it been confirmed in the psone release as well?
―baha
Don't know yet, looking at the screenshots they seem to be the PC version - this would make sense considering the Omnicide team were grabbing images/mapping info for the fan-project.

The PS1/PC versions are very very similar though, even both containing the same cut dialogue files I believe. I'd expect this to be present in both, and the PSN release.

(I always liked that speech by Mortanius, shifts him more towards tragic-hero status, and should have stayed in the game).
―Mama Robotnik, 03-28-2010, 02:36 AM[43]
―Mama Robotnik, [44]
bloodforge
Thanks for the clarification, somehow the text must have blurred together when I was reading this bit.

So, while though the environment, enemies and secrets all seem to work perfectly, the designated entrace to the secret is sealed somehow, and that's why the trainer is used.

I wonder how this happend, such a simple thing really. I wonder if it was meant to be one of those mist-form cracks that somehow they forgot to add in?

Still - I consider the OP accurate in that, the various and numerous hackers who have explored the game have not made the discovery in fourteen years either.

Man. I would love for Naughty Dog to own the Legacy of Kain series.
―∀ Narayan
This is the all round best solution. Though part of me is still curious as to what SK theoretically planned to do with the franchise they created.
―Mama Robotnik, 03-28-2010, 03:13 AM[45]
―Mama Robotnik, [46]
Here's hoping the next LoK game has pirates and werewolves to go with the time traveling vampires and cross dimensional demons/squids. :lol
―IPoopStandingUp
There's no rule to say the pirates can't also be werewolves.
―Mama Robotnik, 03-28-2010, 04:30 AM[47]
oh you guys didnt know about that...no big deal, i found it on my first playthrough.
―robot
You cheat at games during your first playthrough?
―Mama Robotnik, 03-28-2010, 05:05 AM[48]
―Mama Robotnik, [49]
―Mama Robotnik, [50]
April Fools!

maybe?

―JaxJag
If it is then they're good, they're really good, since they must have travelled back in time and inserted the level into every PC version of the game (and probably the PS1 version too).

As I said earlier, I can provide a save file if anyone needs it.

―Mama Robotnik, 03-31-2010, 01:13 AM[51]

#### Legacy of Kain: The Dark Prophecy/Blood Omen III (cancelled game)Edit

―Mama Robotnik, 07-26-2010, 01:52 AM[52]
―Mama Robotnik, [53]
―Mama Robotnik, [54]
―Mama Robotnik, [55]
―Mama Robotnik, [56]
―Mama Robotnik, [57]
―Mama Robotnik, [58]
―Mama Robotnik, [59]
―Mama Robotnik, [60]
―Mama Robotnik, [61]
―Mama Robotnik, [62]
―Mama Robotnik, [63]

#### Kain and Raziel playable in Guardian of Light.Edit

So, someone's gone exploring in the PC version of Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light, and found the hidden character packs.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NNcPa8ZrFHo (watch with the mute on for reduced voice confusion, trust me on this).

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/kainraz1.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/kainraz2.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/kainraz3.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/kainraz4.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/kainraz6.jpg

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/kainraz5.jpg

Its nice to see Crystal Dynamics dust off their best characters again, its a shame they couldn't mute the contrasting voices though and just have them playing together silently.

(Oh, there's also another pack for some other people who have probably been in a game or something).

―Mama Robotnik, 12-01-2010, 06:04 PM[64]
I guess that's cool if you're fine with them sounding like Lara Croft and Minsc. :\
―Lyphen
That's what the mute button is for I think.
Kain looks so happy in the last pic.
―Dizzy-4U
He's just happy to be in some form of video game after seven years, let him have his moment.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-01-2010, 06:08 PM[65]
Weren't there supposed to be some FF characters?
―Teetris
Yeah, they missed an opportunity here to have Cain, Kane and Kain in the same game.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-01-2010, 06:12 PM[66]
I'm ready for Soul Reaver 2!
―Neuromancer
It came in 2001.

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/legacy-of-kain-soul-reaver-2.jpg

And so did I.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-01-2010, 06:39 PM[67]
Crystal Dynamics have asked on their Twitter feed which of the character packs should be given release priority.
If the DLC is the same as what is already "unlocked" here, I most definitely won't pay for it. If on the other hand this is a placeholder mode for future DLC support, and the DLC actually includes proper voices, alternate lines, and someone cool I'll definitely support it. We'll see.
―duckroll
I'm thinking similar, as big a LOK fan that I am, paying for simple character skins is pushing it. But if they brought Michael Bell and Simon Templeman back into the studio, recorded some nice dialogue to match the action going on around them and animated it properly, I'd pay a premium DLC cost without hesitation.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-02-2010, 12:22 AM[68]
While this is cool, WHY THE HELL AREN'T THE LOK GAMES AVAILABLE ON STEAM?
―∀ Narayan
I think its because the Square-Enix side of the company might not know the games exist.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-02-2010, 12:25 AM[69]
I'd love a Steam release too.

A month a two ago, Legacy of Kain Anthology was released in Poland:

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo197/mappster78/1184.jpg

A Steam bundle like that would be great.

Blood Omen is still my favourite in the series, but I can understand its exclusion as its an absolute nightmare running on Windows 7. It would be nice if they could include the PS1 original in an emulation wrapper but I'm sure that's a legal quagmire in itself.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-02-2010, 12:37 AM[70]
No Defiance?
―duckroll
Middle-left.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-02-2010, 12:41 AM[71]
So, Crystal Dynamics ran a poll across forums (Official Eidos Forums and Tombraiderforums.com), and Twitter, asking their audience if they'd prefer they release the Kain and Raziel or Kane and Lynch character pack first.

The result: massive victory for Legacy of Kain in all three mediums, something like a ratio of six people asking for LOK over K&L.

The outcome: They release the Kane and Lynch pack first.

Huh?

―Mama Robotnik, 12-08-2010, 06:53 PM[72]
Probably just trying to figure out which one they could charge for! D:
―Baloonatic
That'd be nice! They've seen the demand, and could right now be bringing Simon Templeman, Richard Doyle and Michael Bell into the studio to record new dialogue for a nice new short LOK story. That's why they've delayed it, to make a product wortth charging for!

I'm not holding my breath, but its as pleasant an explanation as any.

Is that Anthology in English and does it run on modern systems?
Unfortunately I don't know, I don't own it.
Also, they need a new Legacy of Kain title, a reboot, like the first Soul Reaver to Blood Omen.
―UrbanRats
That would be great actually. Like the thousands-of-years gap between BO and SR, it would make the new story accessible to new players while rewarding fans with nods and story links, just like Soul Reaver did for Blood Omen players.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-08-2010, 10:44 PM[73]
Well its out on XBL, 400 points. I'm wondering if that poll was asking us which of the character packs we'd actually pay money for rather than what we'd like to see first.

Its certainly a lot of nonsense dialogue though, lines taken from the various games (and some unrecognised outtakes), all mashed jarringly together to make what could possibly called a story. Its a shame that the money paid didn't get the voice actors back into the studio to record a new sidestory but what's done is done. Its certainly abrasive to see the brilliant series dialogue (and Blood Omen 2) cut together in a fashion, but its at least a pleasant reminder of the LOK games. I've smirked a couple of times at the daftness.

Only done the first level though (have not played the game at all before) and it certainly seems to be rather fun.

Keep trying to shift into the spectral realm and glide off cliffs though, force of habit.

―Mama Robotnik, 12-15-2010, 06:21 PM[74]
I've played it for a few hours now. This Tomb Raider is actually rather pleasant isn't it? First one I've played since the Sega Saturn.

The daft random LOK dialogue continues, its complete nonsense really. Was hoping for something a bit more for my money, maybe some unique abilities or anything.

They've also blatantly not done any lip-syncing or motion for Kain talking, as the camera cuts away from him or faces the back of this head every time he says something!

Well, its amused me at least. Probably worth the 400 points as a novelty.

―Mama Robotnik, 12-15-2010, 11:47 PM[75]

#### "Legacy of Kain: Revenant" or Obsidian Blood/Dead Sun [Square Enix survey rumour]Edit

This story's appearing on a few sites today. Here's the excerpt from Game Revolution.
It's been a while since we've seen Kain or Raziel, but a consumer survey may have given up the ghost on a revival of the franchise. Square Enix became the Legacy of Kain publisher after they bought Eidos. Will the series have new life with Deus Ex and Tomb Raider?

Reader daverabbit stumbled over the possibility of a new Legacy of Kain game. He writes:

So I'm part of a website where you get paid to take online surveys and today I took one that asked me what I thought about different possible names for a Legacy of Kain game. Has there been any news about a new game in this series that I have missed or did I stumble across something here?

The four names were Obsidian Blood, Obsidian Sun, Dead Sun, and Revenant. They also asked if the names sounded good alone or tagged with any of the Legacy of Kain/Soul Reaver/Blood Omen names used previously.

Surveys I've taken in the past have had the product later show up on store shelves so I figured I would share this info with you guys.

With E3 2011 right around the corner, you can be sure that Game Revolution will issue any news on the long list of titles Square Enix is bringing to the big show. Check out our E3 2011 tag page for the latest.

Which of the above titles do you think is fitting of the next game in the Legacy of Kain?
The forum post in question is by a member who has been at Game Revolution for over three years. As there is no other evidence to go on, there could be nothing to this. But the quite specific names given are certainly interesting!

After all these years, its probably not going to be a story continuation, ala the cancelled Legacy of Kain: The Dark Prophecy / Blood Omen III. I'd expect that to try and make the series accessible to newer audiences (and not to terrify potential customers away with the insane backstory), they might be looking at a reimagining or distant continuation.

As we literally have no other information, and this rumour may or may not have any basis to it, lets get the excitement flowing anyway with this impressive remake of Raziel by pschoart. Awesome fanart.

http://i516.photobucket.com/albums/u323/mappster54/042_large.jpg

I still find it hilarious that on Crystal Dynamics' Facebook page, every time they post anything, about their staff, Tomb Raider or even Merry Christmas, two dozen Legacy of Kain fans pile in the comments box demanding a sequel.
―Mama Robotnik, 05-21-2011, 01:36 PM[76]
Honestly after Uncharted's story/writing I'm not so sure this is a bad thing...
―Lumine
I think Amy's great at whatever she writes, but the Uncharted games are a completely different style, genre and audience than the Legacy of Kain games. They're brilliant in a very different way to LOK.

I suppose that shows how diverse her talent is. Uncharted couldn't be more different to her incredible Legacy of Kain writing:

I still think this is the most beautifully written cutscene (and probably best voice acted) in all of gaming. Kain's desperation to not be the stereotypical "last boss" is intense.

―Mama Robotnik, 05-21-2011, 02:08 PM[77]
That would suck so much. Don't make it so.
―antispin
Its not my ideal scenario either, I'm just guessing how Square Enix would want to approach the IP and make it viable to new audiences.

My preference would be a distant continuation, ala Soul Reaver and Doctor Who. They continued their respective franchises by reintroducing us to their changed world, slightly distant from the immediate events of the last game/episode, and over time gradually introduced explicit references to the continuity. The continuation of Doctor Who did the same.

If you watch opening sequence of Soul Reaver, a player new to the franchise could easily think this is the first game in a series. It uses Blood Omen as the distant basis for creating its world, and tells a great story in its own right without needing to have played the previous entry.

They could, for example, set any theoretical new game at some point in the far far future just like Soul Reaver did, adding to the continuity without ignoring it. Or they could even take the opposite approach, and have Kain flung into the far, far past, presenting a world in which the mystic Ancients and the rational Hylden play out their cold war in an increasingly human world. Kain, of course, would be the traveller from the far future, the outsider to this introduced world.

Or not, I'm just throwing ideas out.

What I'm trying to get across though is an immediate continuation of Defiance, directly following the very complicated story it tells, may not an accessible and profitable game make. At the same time, given the existing fanbase is almost completely driven by the story of the games, a reboot risks alienating this dedicated audience. So yeah, I'd advocate a distant continuation I think.

―Mama Robotnik, 05-21-2011, 04:23 PM[78]
Raziel and Kain's story about manipulation, deceit and revenge is one of the best told tales in Gaming. I don't like the fact that Legacy of Kain: Defiance completely retconned Raziel's story. Utter bullshit and one of the worst retconnings in recent times. Legacy of Kain reboot please :)
―RustyNails
What retcon? I have no idea what you are referring to. Not being sarcastic either.

What retcon?

―Mama Robotnik, 05-21-2011, 10:17 PM[79]
The ending of LoK: Defiance. The whole Raziel saying to Kain that he is not his enemy, and only wished to serve him, blah blah blah, when we all know Soul Reaver was nothing but a quest for revenge against Kain. It was like Big Boss at the end of MGS4 saying to Snake that Liquid was his ally all along.
―RustyNails
This is like saying Darth Vader is retconned in Return of the Jedi because he kills Palpatine, but really likes Palpatine in A New Hope.

Its character development, and there are numerous encounters, events and revelations that explain exactly why Raziel chose this future. Heck, you can see this change of attitude towards Kain plainly as the games progress:

Soul Reaver - Opening - Raziel is filled with rage and will mindlessly murder Kain.

Soul Reaver - Pillars - Raziel berates Kain before trying to kill him.

Soul Reaver - Ending - Raziel questions Kain on his actions and on the visions of twisted futures, before trying to kill him.

Soul Reaver 2 - Opening - Raziel sees the beautiful, stable Nosgoth and interacts with the serpent Moebius. This interaction leads him to realise there is something more sinister about The Elder. Raziel realises that his supposed allies may be directing his rage for a reason.

Soul Reaver 2 - Pillars - Kain invites Raziel to witness history, and explains that they are now in the past for a reason. Raziel begins to feel purpose again, and narrates "I don't know what impulse stayed my hand" in letting Kain go. Raziel begins to think of the bigger picture for the first time. He's still enraged, but he's thinking for himself now.

Soul Reaver 2 - William's Chapel - Raziel decides that he no longer wants to be vengeful character in written history, and abandons his rage. He sees Kain, condemns him for playing manipulative games, and turns his back on him to leave. Its a monumental moment of character development.

Soul Reaver 2 - Dark future - Raziel meets Kain again and mocks him for the drama of his appearances. They joke. For the first time we see a hint of the old relationship of father and son.

Soul Reaver 2 - Ending - Kain saves Raziel

Defiance - Kain does EVERYTHING HE CAN to save Raziel.

There is no retcon here. The reason the series is so praised for its writing and characters are that they are believable in their choices and changes. Raziel's progress from ragemonster to noble hero, and his final fitting choice is beautifully done.

No retcon.
―Mama Robotnik, 05-22-2011, 07:59 PM[80]
I think (hope?) he meant from the original plan for Soul Reaver 1, where Raziel was just supposed to kill Kain and free Nosgoth from the vampires. That one was retconned when SR2 became a separate game, and the overall plot was greatly expanded. And, yes, we were incredibly lucky it happened.
―Jocchan
If that's the case then its still such a strange observation from RustyNails, because the original story conclusion for Soul Reaver was completely abandoned to make way for a far better continuation and conclusion.

The way I read his original post was that he felt that Raziel's change in motivation (and development as a character) throughout the games was somehow a retcon, and that's really, really strange.

Aside from the events of Blood Omen 2, there is only one direct retcon I can think of: The Elder God warning Raziel that if he follows Kain into the Chronoplast, he will be out of his "reach." Characters developing and their motivations changing throughout the course of a story is not a retcon.
―Mortrialus
The Soul Reaver series took a few liberties with SK's Blood Omen backstory (such as Malek being the Pillar of Conflict from birth, and the slaughter of the guardians being 500 years before Blood Omen rather than 5000), but these were very very minor and there are very few contradictions in the games.

That Elder quote is probably the best example. The other two inconsistencies for me would be the continuous reaquisition of the Fire Reaver, and the complete vanishing of the constrict ability following Soul Reaver.

―Mama Robotnik, 05-23-2011, 10:08 AM[81]
A few more sites are picking up the story, amazing its spreading based on a forum post that may or may not be true:

http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/219539/rumor-legacy-of-kain-getting-a-reboot/

http://www.thegamingvault.com/2011/05/legacy-of-kain-reboot-rumoured/

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-23-survey-points-to-legacy-of-kain-revival

Interestingly, in the comments section on the last link, someone posted this:
I have it on very good authority that this title is being developed in the UK right now. But..... I can't say anymore.
―Do Eidos or Square Enix have a UK-based team that's currently available, or is it just a troll?
―Mama Robotnik, 05-23-2011, 09:52 PM[82]

#### Legacy of Kain 6 - The first section of the unreleased gameEdit

―Mama Robotnik, 08-08-2011, 03:44 AM[83]
―Mama Robotnik, [84]
―luka
Sorry for not linking, I've mentioned the project on GAF before but should have explained as that was a while back.

Its a HD remake of Blood Omen called "Blood Omnicide". I like the look of it:

http://omnicide.legacy-of-kain.ru/
―Mama Robotnik, 08-08-2011, 08:56 AM[86]
I'm glad you guys enjoyed this, I'm developing a mastery of Google to find these buried portfolios and blogs.

Regarding the Sequel vs Reboot vs HD Remakes route, I'd suggest a different direction.

I'd like to see the series return as a distant continuation. This is the route taken by the original Soul Reaver and the new Doctor Who. It preserves canon and nods to it, without being held back by its weight. It could introduce a new entry that is so far into the future, it becomes an entirely new, accessible game, as Soul Reaver was from Blood Omen.

It would be beneficial as (1) the game would be accessible to new audiences, and (2) the major fans of the series focus primarily on the story above all other concerns, and wouldn't lose their investment in the characters.

Perhaps a game set after the fall of Kain's Empire, in which Kain's purification is slowly reversing (or at least stabalising) Nosgoth's collapse. You could even introduce a different playable character (so it would be their game), and return Kain to his NPC role ala Soul Reaver. That's a game I'd like to play.
―Mama Robotnik, 08-08-2011, 06:47 PM[87]
Fixed the broken images, sorry about that.
I've never played any of these games, but I love reading/seeing stuff like this. Do the games hold up well? Is it worth checking them out? What games/platforms do I need to check out?
―BigJiantRobut
Blood Omen holds up really well, its kind of a Link to the Past but with Shakespearean-trained voice actors, a brilliant story, massive avoidance of genre cliche, lots of sadism and tons to explore. The PC version is the best to find as it has a clearer resolution and massively improved loading times - alas it has compatability difficulties with more modern versions of windows.

Soul Reaver 1 is great on PC bumped up to high resolution, but the definitive port is the Dreamcast version. As a game it holds up very well with gameplay reminiscent of Metroid.

Soul Reaver 2 looks beautiful and has possibly the most intelligently-delivered time-travel story in all of gaming. Its not quite as freeform as Soul Reaver 1, but by this point you'll be playing for the next twist. Defiance is playable, but your patience for its unique camera system may depend on how invested in the story you have become.

They are collectively the best acted, best written and best presented story in gaming. In my humble opinion, of course.

Lets be honest, the story is confusing and bloated. after the events of Soul Reaver with all the time travelling it really starts to confuse me.. when the Wikipedia page isn't too sure what's going on.. It must be a bad sign.
―CoffeeExpress
I really disagree. As long as Blood Omen 2 is ignored, the story is a thing of beauty. Its complex and covers some very broad themes, but I'd never describe it as bloated.
i never played any of the blood omen games because i always felt like Kain was the bad guy, and Raziel was the hero, so i bought Soul Reaver 2 instead of Blood Omen 2. :P
―Commanche Raisin Toast
You made the right choice for the wrong reasons, in true Legacy of Kain style.
Nice find. You really like these games eh?
―lethial
Most of them yes.
―Mama Robotnik, 08-08-2011, 11:55 PM[88]
I've now posted this in the two big LOK communities at the Nosgothic Realm and the Eidos Forums. They're agreeing with most of my reasoning in linking the events and art together which is good.

A clarification made (only a minor one) is that in the OP I said that "In Defiance both the Hylden and the Ancients predicted Raziel and Kain's fateful battle at Avernus".

This has been pointed out to be an error in my memory. The Hylden and the Vampires predicted Raziel's existence, but both assumed him to be their champion. They did not predict his battle with Kain, but more the endless battle with himself.

It does however still support the flow of events I have listed. The two ancient races had their own prophecies about a pivotal figure in Nosgoth's future - Raziel. It makes sense that they would have their own prophecies of the other pivotal figure - Kain. We saw the vampires own prophecy regarding him in Legacy of Kain: Defiance - the final "Scion of Balance" prophecy.

The Hylden equivalent to this was not shown. This prophecy, their interpretation of Kain's existence and future, is what I assume to be "The Dark Prophecy".
―Mama Robotnik, 08-09-2011, 08:56 AM[89]
The only one I missed, however, was Soul Reaver 2. I always meant to get around to it and never did.

Does it still hold up today? I have a BC PS3 that I was thinking of playing it on.

―evilernLeGG
Its among the best written stories in gaming combined with the very best, most graceful voice acting the industry has ever seen. It has a great moody soundtrack, a diverse selection of areas to explore, some good puzzles and is generally a lot of fun to play.

If you are referring to its visuals, its best you decide for yourself:

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo44/mappster85/pillarsundespectral.jpg

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo44/mappster85/SR2TheElder.jpg

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo44/mappster85/Moebius-Worried.jpg

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo44/mappster85/Timemachine2.jpg

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo44/mappster85/SR2RazielholdingMaterialReaver.jpg

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo44/mappster85/SR2PillarsChamber.jpg

Personally I think it still looks pretty damn great, mainly thanks to the absolutely fantastic architecture and unusual design work. I'm biased though, of course.

―Mama Robotnik, 08-12-2011, 02:49 AM[90]
Are those screenshots of the Dreamcast version of Soul Reaver? Holy crap Raziel's model looks so good. And I always thought it was weird how the CG in Soul Reaver 1 looks so much better than Blood Omen 2 despite being older.
―Jangaroo
The CG intro is a work of art to this day, I can't think of a more impressive intro FMV in the 32-Bit generation:

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/mappster73/Intro1pillars.jpg

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/mappster73/kainthroneh.jpg

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/mappster73/cliffs.jpg

Soul Reaver 2 on PS2
―Melchiah
Close, they're the PC version of Soul Reaver 2. The games runs in HD admirably.

The original Soul Reaver is quite nice in HD too, shockingly so when you consider its PS1 origins.

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/mappster73/soulreaverinhd.jpg

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/mappster73/soulreaverpillars2.jpg

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/mappster73/soulreaverdumahi.jpg

http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq39/mappster73/soulreaverkain.jpg

I think that's pretty impressive for what is essentially a PS1 port.

―Mama Robotnik, 08-12-2011, 10:11 PM[91]
I so wish I can get SR1 to work properly on the PC. Looks amazing @ 1920 x 1080.
―Fermbiz
Have you tried Ben's guide to running the game on Vista?
―Mama Robotnik, 08-12-2011, 10:25 PM[92]
As in, he was likely coming back in the game in some form, as an NPC or PC?! If they could have worked it into the story in a way that wasn't poorly executed or overly fan service-y, awesome.
―Mortrialus
This is unknown at present. The image of Raziel is by far the most conterversial and concerning of the discoveries I've made. It comes from the portfolio of artist/modeller Frank Pierce in the section covering his work at Ritual Entertainment.

As his period at the studio was during Legacy of Kain 6's development, and as Ritual had no other contribution to the other Legacy of Kain titles, the only logical assumption is that it was from the cancelled game.

I've posted my finds over at Nosgothic Realm and the Eidos Forums, and a potential reawakening of Raziel has been a point of discussion. Like most, I agree that it is not needed and would harm the significance of the entire Soul Reaver arc. Raziel's story is done, and Amy Hennig brought it to an incredible conclusion.

I'm hoping that the render is part of a flashback or something, but making Raziel a playable character again would be detrimental to the story lore and take focus away from Kain's next move.

Another point of discussion is the revelation of further reaver forges, which most of the hardcore LOK fans at the other forums feel is just repeating ground that was covered in SR1/2/Defiance and I'm inclined to agree.
―Mama Robotnik, 08-13-2011, 01:28 PM[93]
Man, I think I now understand the sort of guilty demands that fans who ask for a FF7 remake, or the Star Wars fans who asked for more Star Wars movies, despite how easily and likely those things are to completely mess up and ruin. Bringing Raziel back would ruin his sacrifice, and damage the lore and storytelling prestige the Legacy of Kain series has, and yet he was my favorite character and I would love to see him back, playable in a new game. He just felt like the better protagonist and PC. Kain's role in Soul Reaver 1&2 seemed more appropriate for him.
―Mortrialus
I agree that part of me would like to see him back, along with Moebius, the brethren, the other parts of old Nosgoth, Vorador, Mortanius and many others, but their story is done.

I really think the future of the series is literally in the future of Nosgoth, in the era beyond Kain's decayed Empire. I'd leave the time travel aspects out of the series now, as brilliant as they are for the dedicated fans they are nigh-on inpenetrable for new players.

Given that Kain (and by association part of the Pillar of Balance) has been healed, this could be used as a plot device to give Future Nosgoth stability and perhaps a degree of recovery. With Kain currently on adventures thousands of years into the past, the Lieutenants all dead, and the vampires of the era no more than feral animals lacking any leadership, it may be time for the humans to rise once again.

Playing one of these Vampiure Hunters who tries to reclaim the land (and is perhaps infected with vampirism) exploring the secrets of Kain's buried Empire, with Kain himself as a NPC could be a fun place to start. It would give us a new Nosgoth to explore, a new character and a new direction for the story while respecting and referencing past events for the hardcore fans. It would an approachable idea for anything thinking of jumping on board too, and follows the Distant-Continuation idea that was implemented in the mega-successful Soul Reaver 1.

I got sick of Reaver forges back in Defiance. Despite Defiance's amazing conclusion, I feel its story is the weakest of the Soul Reaver Arc due to the fact that way to much of the game is spent either retreading over the Vampire Lore discovered in Soul Reaver 2, or the main characters dicking around in the forges describing their surroundings and the powers of the forges rather than advancing the story at a faster pace.
―Mortrialus
There was certainly some repetitiveness in Defiance, in its environments and covering some revelations that were better explored in Soul Reaver 2, but I still really enjoyed it.

The wekeast aspect I would consider of it (and to the same degree, SR2) is the abandonment of the open-world structure that underpinned the first Blood Omen and Soul Reaver games. They combined their storytelling with Metroidvania progression and an absolute ton of optional and hidden areas with very elaborate designs. It was incredibly fun to explore them. The series lost this exploration and advancement as it went on, and that was a shame.
―Mama Robotnik, 08-13-2011, 02:20 PM[94]
I was thinking that regardless of Kain's position as either an NPC or a PC, the story of Legacy of Kain should continue in the future of Nosgoth that Kain and Raziel abandoned at the end of Soul Reaver 1.
―Mortrialus
I agree with this for a few reasons.

-Having one world in one period in time should allow a return of the exploration elements of the earlier games. Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance, by their nature as games requiring leaps through timezones and timestreams, did not give us enough to explore and unearth, and this was very much missed.

-In terms of the story, we know the past very well now. The future is by far the most uncertain, especially now that Kain is no longer acting as a corrupt anchor pulling the world into the abyss.

-It would be by far the most accessible way for new players to jump on board, and hopefully lead to financial success for the brand. Legacy of Kain 6's possible story as I've pieced together, still has Kain stuck in the past, and sounds like it would have still been mired in the lore rather than making some distance between it.

I believe Ariel mentions that because of Kain's corruption and his refusal of the sacrifice, the Pillars cannot choose new guardians.
―Mortrialus
That was the case when the Pillars became spiritually jammed in Blood Omen. Due to Nupraptor's madness infecting all of the guardians, their symbiotic link to the Pillars structure itself caused it to function incorrectly. Normally at the moment of death a new guardian would be chosen, but when they all went insane the Pillars were unable to do so. Kain needed to die to "reboot" the entire system as it were.

However that was the status before Kain overloaded the Pillars in Blood Omen and exploded the entire system. At that moment the binding collapsed, giving the Hylden and Demons access to the land. Since we know that Nosgoth can exist and survive without the Pillars (the time of the Ancients and the Hylden), it makes sense that the broken pillars symbiotically connected to one corrupt guardian, are poisoning the land and leading to the collapse of existence seen happening in Soul Reaver.

What I'm trying to say is that the entire system is fucked, and Kain's sacrifice will not restore it anymore. That sacrifice could have only happened at one place in space and time - the end of Blood Omen.
Given that Kain is now cured of this corruption, the Pillars in the future have likely been restored and have chosen new guardians.
―Mortrialus
I disagree on this. I think that Kain's healing has opened his eyes to the Elder, and restored the sense of balance he should have earned from his birthright as the Balance Guardian. It is notable that he only ever acknowledges "hope" for the first time in the entire franchise, and in the thousands of years of character development, soonafter the healing.

But to say that it would have immediately restored the Pillars and enabled them to choose new guardians, I consider to be an assumption too far. The destruction of the Pillars, as per Janos' reaction, was catastrophic and irreversible.

My interpretation is that the remains of the Pillars were tainting the land due to their link to the one corrupt guardian. With that link healed, the remains of the Pillars may stop poisoning the land and perhaps allow Nosgoth to very slowly return to its pre-Pillars state.

I don't see them having the capabity of choosing new guardians at all. However, we don't know for certain either way.

The next Legacy of Kain game should deal with either Kain assembling the new guardians and introducing them to the true nature of the pillars and vampirism, restoring his empire and confronting the Elder God once and for all, or as one of these new guardians dealing with his new role as a vampire guardian as Kain acts as an NPC, working on restoring his empire and preparing his final assault on the elder god.
―Mortrialus
Certainly an interesting concept, and not one I had considered.
One thought, how much of a bastard is Kain going to be now that his madness has been healed?
―Mortrialus
"The bitter taste of that terrible illusion.... Hope."

Kain's last words in Defiance are not something he would have ever said before his healing. They are tremendously significant I feel.

I feel that he isn't talking about hope for himself as you'd normally expect given his character. He's talking about hope for the world.

His healing may have a significant affect on him. It has, after all, restored him to the position he was born for - the balancing force for the entire world.

―Mama Robotnik, 08-13-2011, 06:08 PM[95]

#### A post-mortem of Silicon Knights (Mama Robotnik research thread)Edit

―Mama Robotnik, 12-12-2012, 03:31 AM[96]
―Mama Robotnik, 12-12-2012, 04:32 AM[97]
―Mama Robotnik, 12-12-2012, 04:33 AM[98]
―Mama Robotnik, 12-12-2012, 04:34 AM[99]
Eternal Darkness II

Partner: Possibly Nintendo
Status: Dies with the studio

In March 2012, Denis Dyack informed GameIndustry.biz that Silicon Knights would be making a sequel to one of their previous games:There were only three candidates:

Legacy of Kain: an extremely unlikely possibility given the how viciously Crystal Dynamics and SK parted way.

Too Human:highly unlikely to be anyone’s “most requested”.

Eternal Darkness popular and feasible.

Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion would be thus: Silicon Knights were returning to their last recent hit, Eternal Darkness. Back in 2006, Dyack confirmed that this was going to be the plan all along:Back in June this year, Shiggy posted this on NeoGAF.Given how Shiggy has proven to be accurate with regularity, it caused a bit of a storm. Sites picked up the story, and Dyack issued a statement:Andrew McMillen’s investigation, in which multiple sources from Silicon Knights were interviewed, corroborates Shiggy and contradicts Denis:At least one portfolio website of a former Silicon Knights concept artist seems to make reference to the project – suggesting that the ambition was for a 360/PS3/WiiU release.How this multi-format release would have worked - given Nintendo’s ambiguous partial ownership of the Eternal Darkness IP – is unclear. Regardless, with X-Men Destiny a critical and commercial bomb, and reportedly only five employees remaining in the once hundreds-strong organisation, Eternal Darkness II is almost certainly utterly cancelled. Penny Arcade can explain SK’s current toxicity in a way better than I:I may have found some media from the project.

http://i.imgur.com/d1TiF.jpg

I have found a portfolio belonging to a former Silicon Knights 3D Character Artist, with renders from unspecified cancelled projects – along with his work on Too Human. The first folder (uploaded in June 2012) shows the above image and the below thumbnails.

tbc

―Mama Robotnik, 12-12-2012, 04:35 AM[100]
Thanks for the really nice comments! I'm on a train on a sub-3G connection so I can't respond in depth properly but will do. Same goes for the (very interesting!) PMs I've received.

Thanks for the correction feedback too - think I've misread The Crucible situation and will fix that. Plus the errors and word mixups - proof reading is an area in which I genuinely struggle.

Also, thanks for crediting me to the various websites that have ran with the story - I've had repeated problems in the past with sites crediting themselves for my work, so it's great to see that doesn't seem to happen any more.
―Mama Robotnik, 12-12-2012, 07:14 PM[101]
Bump for new material. I've edited all these into the OPsL

(1) I had to include the story that tensions were so high during Silicon Knights/Crystal Dynamics collaboration that the police were called in:

http://gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2013/02/25/something-in-the-water-crystal-dynamics-in-the-90s.aspx?PostPageIndex=4/http://i.imgur.com/QohAE82.gif

(2) A load of new media from The Box:

http://i.imgur.com/LGnKbpa.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TUvL5yS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dZQkksO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cSWBv5A.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UAi9skQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/G6frRtt.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/aHq1kFI.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/vpaxzYU.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ZIvpT7b.jpg(Source: Don Toledo)

(3) I've removed the incorrect references to THQ's The Ritualist - despite the speculation at the time it was not a SK game.

(4) I've added in Shiggy's own fantastic material that he has posted throughout the thread, with thanks.
―Mama Robotnik, 04-30-2013, 04:17 AM[102]
Another bump for another possible find:

http://i.imgur.com/80wINOV.jpg

(Source: Matthew Lau)

According to Matthew's resume, he worked at Silicon Knights back in 2008 on multiple game development concepts. The image of a possessed magical-empowered Roman centurion is strongly connected to the Eternal Darkness mythos. Could this have been a very early take on a direct sequel to ED?

I'm speculating that Pious Augustus returned to Rome with a disguise of humanity - though those magically attuned could still see the glow of his eyes.
―Mama Robotnik, 04-30-2013, 02:20 PM[103]

#### Some Soul Reaver/Legacy of Kain newsEdit

―Mama Robotnik, 08-20-2012, 04:30 AM[104]
more
http://i.imgur.com/7zWXk.jpg

I have a question about Defiance's deleted chapters. Since it's been a nearly ten years after the game release probably you can reveal something you know?

I am interested in deleted final chapter. Can you give any hint how Kain was supposed to take out the Elder God? Just a little hint.

Thanks for your question. Hmmm.. I don't think there was anything deleted out of the end of Defiance. It wrapped up the way it was supposed to: Raziel's cycle was complete, Kain was given a chance at hope, and the Elder God, though defeated, was set up to be an adversary in the next game. Except.. there was no next game. LOL. If Kain were to ever defeat the Elder God, I am sure it would require the restoration of the pillars and somehow 'pinning him down' before finishing him off with some Epic use of the Soul Reaver. It could be a level or the intent of a whole game to beat him, involving multiple locations where you track him down and destroy key areas that he dwells in or uses as anchors to keep himself in our world. In any case it shouldn't be a single encounter or small thing to beat him...

http://i.imgur.com/joTx3.jpg

According to the Lost Words, Defiance was supposed to have the final chapter, where Kain was suppoed to return in the SR era and restore the world.

Have and Amy you ever duscussed what is the Elder God? Does he really control the Wheel of Fate?

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about Kain going back to SR1. I vaguely remember something about Kain going to the future SR1, using the blade to purify the pillars then going back to Pre-BO1 era time to leave the Soul Reaver at the base of the pillars. (For William the Just or Moebius to find) This was a very loose set of ideas, and we it wasn't so much deleted content as a rough idea we didn't have time to implement. By the time we got to the end of the game, we wanted to leave it open ended so it could help set up the next one. (See how that turned out.. )

m, so the blade was supposed to be used to restore the Pillars? This leads to another question...

At the end of Defiance Raziel says: "The two become one... both Soul Reavers - together". So, I want to ask you - if Kain was supposed to use the Soul Reaver to save the world, then Amy originally intended both the purified Wraith Blade and Raziel goind into the Reaver? I am asking because later Jen and Kyle said that the purified Wraith Blade never entered the sword, but was "dispersed" into Kain.

And what is the Elder God? Have Amy ever talked about? Or he (it?) was always supposed to be uneplained evil?

The purification was of Kain, not the reaver. Remember that he was always flawed and therefor any vampire he created would also be flawed (hence the devolution). The pufified spirit of every balance guardian healed Kain of those flaws.
The Reaver, with all the embued elements is a conduit. Make no mistake though.. Raziel is in that sword.

The Elder God is a constant. A DemiUrge, or false god, that convinced the Vampires to worship him. I don't think we need to try and lay out his motivations.. that would just make him less epic of an enemy.
http://i.imgur.com/s5n8I.jpg

What inspired the look of the vampire wraiths in the game?

The Vampire Wraiths are a funny story. Amy had given me the description for them one day and as I had just finished work on the Sluagh. I kept churning over in my head what those fettered souls would look like. I wanted to do something super detailed, but the PS1 level graphics were pretty limited. I was pouring through all my art books to get inspiration and get into the groove. I think I went through just about everything I had at the time, from Gundam to Dark Crystal. I have a belief that when you put good things in your head, great stuff comes out. I went to bed exhausted and just let it all sink in. I woke up at 4 in the morning, unable to sleep further.. something was rattling around in my noggin'. At the time I lived a few blocks from Crystal D, so I got dressed and sort of jogged to work. I got into my drawing table and just started drawing cool shapes. I realized that, actually, the less I showed of them, the better they would look, so I grabbed my book of mummified bodies and started riffing on the design from there. (yes, I have a book of mummified bodies.. doesn't everyone?!) Looking at death shrouds and wrappings,I then grabbed my old Frazetta book and looked up Death Dealer. Then that led me to look at Alan Lee's paintings of Nazgul. Before I knew it I had knocked out the design by 8 am and had turnarounds done by 9:30 when most people started coming in. I showed my design to the programmers, and was happy that I could come up with a design that didn't require a ton of bones for the legs. ( I felt like I had used my creativity to come up with a good design that not only looked good but solved a bone count issue with some of our enemies) Hoo that became a long story, lol.
http://i.imgur.com/7zdmp.jpg

At which stage of the development where the remaining Reaver forges cut from the game and why? (stone, water, sunlight, sound). I read in many reviews before SR´s release that you could imbue the Reaver with several elements but was puzzled when there was only the fire forge in the game. Do you know where in the game could Raziel find those forges?

Ah yes, the remaining forges. Let me tell you, this game ate up a lot of weekends and late nights. Even with that extra time in, we didn't have enough days to finish the game the way it was imagined. There was just too much stuff. Designers had planned the forges and powers that went along with them. One day, we had a come to Jesus moment where we just had to look at the (extremely large) overhead map and just start Xing out areas, powers, and abilities. It was painful and difficult. Each forge was tied to an ability, and each ability was supposed to unlock a new area, AND new mechanics. So it was all interwoven. Each cut was not minor.. it literally tore apart pages of well thought out design. (It was like killing your baby.. but Game Devs are the only ones who cry over it.. and people who find out about it later LOL). It was cut about 2/3 into the game. I think all the remaining glyphs were cut at the same time.. sometimes having too many ways to kill a Vampire can be bad too.. we realized there was a lot of redundancy as well. It takes resources from every department (Character, Environment, Engineering, Audio, FX, UI, Design, and Production) to get a single feature realized, so we made cuts that helped as many departments as possible, and sharpened the overall experience. (This happens EVERY GAME, btw) The locations of most forges was adjacent to a boss room.
http://i.imgur.com/g0sqI.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Yr9T9.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/PbfKk.jpg

In the next [cancelled] game I wanted to have Kain be able to look BO1 humanoid but as soon as his skin touched direct sunlight, it would harden into The SR era look. That way he could walk through uschtenheim or other human cities unaccosted. I did a drawing of it on my old website under Young and the Restless Kain.

Beast and Wolf forms were supposed to make come backs. The Dire Wolf form was up for redesign, since my first pass felt too much like Raziel (skinny tummy) and Kain should feel more Burly. But they would have been fun to work on.
This is another question regarding SR1 - who are the figures on the title screen? It seems to be representing Kain and Lieutenants but I am not sure who is who.
Could you comment on this screenshot of beta on the left and retail on the right? My guesses are below the picture :D

http://i.imgur.com/eRWiy.png

1. Looks very much like Raziel in both beta and retail. After turning its head looks like the wraith Raziel, in TLB he looks like his vampire self instead. His eyes also don't glow blue in TLB and he appears to have black tears.
2. Seems like Kain, since he is in the middle. His face changed to more inhuman bit from beta to retail.
3. My guess would be Dumah, or maybe Turel. His face also seems more human in retail version.
4. This one really puzzled me - is it Rahab or maybe the Priestess? I was really thinking that after seeing in beta, the figure has no glowing eyes and looks pretty feminine. However, in retail, eyes are red. Do you know why? :)
5. My guess would be Zephon since figure´s hair seems to match it.
6. Now I have no idea who this might be, since the change from beta to retail is pretty significant. I would say that in beta it seems to be Rahab, but in retail I have no idea..
7. This is an alternative possibly to no. 6. In beta, figure seems to have hair while in retail, he is bald (seems like Melchiah)
8. The Bearded man is a mystery, possibly Dumah or Turel?

Could you explain if these are close to what they really are?

I busted my ass on the 11th hour on this one. It was one of the last things we put in the game, and I championed it because I thought it made the game cooler. You know UI is the first thing you see in a game. I remember making the image and going "You know what would be cool.. if their faces turned to face you and they became all vampiric!" Cory Stockton was all "yeah that sounds great.. good luck with that one, dude."
I hadn't realized the crapload of work it would take to make that image work, I animated each head by hand, but wasn't happy with the animation aspect of it. So I had my friend Colin put in 3D heads that were camera mapped, had them turn over a few frames, rendered it in MAX, then HAND PAINTED head frame of each head on top. I had great support from the programmers to get this in too.. technically we put it in after the content lock deadline (shhhh!) but everyone thought it was cool so we kept it. Did you guys like it? Did it freak you out at first? I hope so..

Anway, Except for Raziel, they're all abstractions of Kain and the bretheren. Red eyes are for vamps, blue is for the Reaver. I generally thought of Kain representing the middle, and you're pretty much spot on for all the statues. I wanted them to be a 'shadow knows' kind of reveal (like spectral)

1. Raziel
2. Kain
3. Dumah (reminiscient of the dumahim shape)
4. Priestess (Even though she was cut.. it rounded out the image)
5. Zephon (Kind of made his representation look like a brat lol)
6.Rahab (shielding himself from the sun)
7. Melchiah (bald and hiding his percieved ugliness)
8. Turel
http://i.imgur.com/MMie8.jpg

Who is this character and what is her story (you once referred to her as "Vorador's mystery woman" :))? All we know is that her portrait appeared in BO1 and Defiance, she's not Umah, and she's "a character who is part of the backstory and not revealed in the games".

Initially, we had the ability to create murals and pics in the game, then run them by Amy to make sure they were open ended enough for her to write in a back story if she wanted to include it. It's sort of like a 'hook' what Amy could write in if she wanted. Sometimes she asked for specific images (like William and Kain) and sometimes she let us riff a bit. This woman is one of those riffs. I created her to be someone he was fond of. In my mind she was a lost love, perhaps a powerful sorceress. It was always my hope that someone would write a good story for her after Defiance ended. Maybe one of the fans could? If it's engaging, I could draw an illustration for it. What do you think, would someone be up for it? (But it would have to be a good story.. no furries.. please.. God.. )
http://i.imgur.com/ChYT3.jpg

One more Vorador question. In Defiance, he is seen with a jagged sword in one scene. Was this supposed to be the same weapon he wielded throughout BO1, or a different one?

Yes and no. The original Vorador weapon was way too close to the reaver, so we sort of retconned it with the sword you see him carrying. It made more sense since he's a blacksmith that he'd make a more signature looking weapon. It makes much more sense this way.. I think of BO1 as the TV version and Defiance as the Movie version in terms of interpretation.
http://i.imgur.com/9i0q4.jpg

It's been conjectured a few times that the faces of a few of the characters were partially designed or re-designed to loosely resemble their voice actors (uh, well, the characters who have faces, that is). How true is this? I can definitely see it in Kain (Simon) and Vorador (Paul), but it would be really nice to have an official comment on it.

Actually, its sheer coincidence. I hadn't seen Paul Lukather or Simon Templeman's faces prior to designing them. Maybe it's the magic of the voices that made them look alike.. something ephemeral about voices.. trying to picture what they look like. (though everytime I meet a voice actor he's never what I think they look like. ie Lion-o haha)
http://i.imgur.com/EkUSb.jpg

I would be very interested in hearing anything you have to say about designing the character of Janos Audron. I think there was speculation that Béla Lugosi's work in Dracula was a big influence, but I haven't seen any official commentary about it.
Also, in Blood Omen 1, Kain could come across a few frozen beings in the Oracle's Cave with horns and Janos-like wings; there were also statues of these beings in the rafters of Avernus Cathedral, and probably some more in a few other places. I nearly choked on my drink to discover them when replaying BO1 some time after finishing SR2; "this seemed an unlikely coincidence". :P Were you aware of these BO1 creatures when designing Janos and the ancients?

Janos was a specific design brought down by Amy. I wanted him to look all ancient and badass, like the owl from Secret of Nimh. But we wanted specific cues to make him seem holy and quietly powerful. I guess I'm more of an over-the-top kind of guy when it comes to initial concepts. We took influences from many different things: Actors, Priest vestments, even the types of wings from birds (Predatory wings are very different from glider wings) Ultimately he was the blueprint for all winged ancients. I'm pretty sure that if there is a connection between Avernus/Oracle's cave and the Ancients, that it's by and large coming from Amy. She is amazing at tying things together and explaining stuff that other people throw in because it looks pretty. Personally I didn't see those winged beings in BO1 and try to tie them into SR2.
http://i.imgur.com/duX3d.jpg

Few questions about eyes. With only a few exceptions (such as Rahab), almost every single vampire seen throughout the series has yellow eyes. Is this deliberate? Is it perhaps a side-effect of the Hylden blood curse?
A couple of other characters also have unique eyes: Moebius and Turel both have washed-out, desaturated pupils - almost like cataracts - and Mortanius seems to have no pupils at all in Defiance. When Janos is possessed by the Hylden Lord in Defiance, his pupils also seem to disappear or fade. What is the reasoning behind these design elements?
Obviously Turel's could relate to his blindness, and Mortanius to his possession, but that still leaves Moebius. Somebody came up with an interesting theory that it has something to do with his knowledge of the future: Kain says in SR1 that "as a man, I could never have contained such forbidden truths". Well, Moebius is a man who has to contain them, and it's ruined his vision. :lol:

Yep, the washed out pupils help show whose 'side' they were on. Moebius had washed out eyes because he sees the time stream. His pupils were actually becoming hourglass shaped like the Elder Gods to show how in alignment he was with him. I seem to remember that when he played the doddering old soothsayer, that he also played either blind or nearsighted. It all played into that.

Vampires had yellow eyes, Rahab's changed because he was becoming water resistant.

http://i.imgur.com/TrsMI.jpg

Regarding The Dark Prophecy, I'm particularly curious about one thing. When Divine Shadow first uncovered it, he came across this image, which was created by Ritual Entertainment, and seems to depict Kain transitioning into his SR1 emperor incarnation, probably some time not long after BO2. You had also painted a "Young Kain Proposal" in 2002, which was up at spectraljin.com.
As a result, we all started speculating that The Dark Prophecy might have been intended to follow the structure of Defiance, but with players alternating between young and old Kain instead of Kain and Raziel. That's an idea I think could've had enormous potential if done right, but was it ever seriously considered for TDP? If not, do you know if young Kain supposed to appear anyway?

Dark Prophecy would have been cool.. We had a version of Kain that linked BO2 with SR.. The thought was to either play Kain in this Era, or use it as part of his disguise, which would fade in direct sunlight. There was a lot of back and forth on the story but either one would have been cool. I loved this desingn for Kain too.. One thought was to have Elder Kain in the Hylden Realm, and Young Kain in the material realm, playing different chapters... Even having Kain 'help out' his other self from the shadows, taking out heavy foes that would have outmatched his younger self. (And get this.. getting caught in a Moebius time trap that put him on the field facing his younger self from BO1.. He'd have to 'throw the fight' and dissipate.. but it would have been cool to see.. and not before sending some hell Moebius' way before he left) We had things like summoning Vorador, or Jumping between Demon/Hylden realms too.
http://i.imgur.com/Kr9Fq.jpg

This is regarding Umah and Vorador´s appearance in Defiance.

What was Umah´s intended role in Defiance and where would she appear? Would she encounter Raziel or Kain?
Also, this concept which you drew of her:
http://thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Images/Umah-01-Concept-DC-Umah-01.JPG
Have you drawn her as a human or a vampire in that picture? Jake and I are wondering, because the colour of her eyes and her skin seems unnatural to a regular human and she seems to be wearing Voradors symbol. So we are thinking she is either a vampire worshipper or a vampire. Thanks a lot!

Did Vorador originally appear more times than in the final game? Was his resurrection (as he is in BO2) planned to be explained? If so, can you tell us who would resurrect him after his beheading by Moebius´ mob?

Umah was intended to be a vampire worshipper/consort to Vorador. As you correctly guessed, she was to play a similar role to the Vampire Priestess originally envisioned in Soul Reaver. Dangit, we could never get one in the game! LOL She was always meant to be 'special' and quite a powerful sorceress, hence the eyes. But the concept you have is meant for a human Umah, with lavender eyes. (she has too much of a tan to be a vampire)
She wears Vorador's symbol because she's meant to be part of his clan, soon to be transformed into a vampire. I think when Raziel visits Vorador after he is beheaded, your job is to go to the statute holding his head, retrieve it, and bring it to his body. Much the same as the way Janos was resurrected, Raz would help raise Vorador. Umah was the mission giver and as a reward would be turned into a vampire.
We had to do a lot of reconciliation with BO2... and had to cut it for time. (also, the fact that Raz would rez both Vorador AND Janos seemed.. redundant)

It's important to remember one thing: Defiance was a part of the SR trilogy with Raziel as the hero. It wasn't about giving equal screen time to Kain.. He already stole a ton of spotlight with his few chapters.
I don't think BO2 Kain would have been good because then Vorador would 'owe Kain one' so to speak.
Kain did have a mission in Vorador's mansion but I think it was to meet living Vorador. We wanted to have Kain be able to summon him afterwards with the ring. Vorador seeing how powerful Kain had become would be distrustful.. And would pass that to his clan (ie Umah)
There was also the idea you could see Umah being turned

Okay, so the reason I think the young Kain should resurrect him as an alternative even if it causes Vorador to 'owe him one'
still makes sense as he was up against the Sarafan Lord right? Vorador probably returned this favor by building him an army.
So I guess it could have been rewritten to be either the old or the young Kain to end up doing it?

Yeah it was actually more of a huge deal to see a Vampire being made, since that wasn't something that was ever shown. Traditional 'embrace' or some bizarre Necromancy?

Raziel had to resurrect Vorador to show that A) he had he power of 'jump starting' bodies with his power and B) needed something important from him to find Janos. It was all really to reconcile BO2. (and there was a lot of.. reconciling.. to do)

That said, elder Kain rezzing him would have been cool too. There'd be a cool smackdown talk there.

http://i.imgur.com/m7plg.jpg

Was the young Kain supposed to make an appearance during the game?

Yes, and believe me I was broken hearted when we canceled that part. But it happened before I could put any art resources on it, so it wasn't as painful as cutting out finished characters or anything like that. Would have been fun though! I wanted to redesign BO1 Kain's armor..

MORE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ARE AT THE TOP OF PAGE TWO OF THIS THREAD.

That's everything. I know its not a new game, but for fans of the franchise, I hope there have been things of interest here.
―Mama Robotnik, 08-20-2012, 05:31 AM[105]
More from the Q & A

http://i.imgur.com/cFtxX.jpg

I'm not quite sure how to word these questions, so bear with me please. I'm aware that this particular game is rather divisive in some ways, and am very respectful that the team that made it clearly had their own sense of vision for the game. I am also aware that you were not part of the team that worked on it Daniel. I'm still hoping you may be able to offer some insight with these few questions:

Well BO2 was a completely different team, and they had a lot of their own ideas about the direction they wanted to go. I had a few friends on that team, so I can only say that I wish we'd worked more closely together and collaborated. But even in the best environments, you'll have people who want to make their own statements and go their own way. There was a lot of people who didn't quite get Soul Reaver at Crystal and Eidos. The higher ups wanted more overtly sexual elements with a simpler story and I think that had a lot of influence on BO2. (Additionally Steve Ross had his own style and that had a heavy influence on BO2.) Marketing guys just wanted an easy, marketable design. (Like Doc Martens on Raziel.. *SHUDDER*) SR was a delicate balance of sensibilities, and it was difficult enough for our team to stay on task, so there was a lot of divergence.
http://i.imgur.com/LiAJH.jpg

How much say did the Soul Reaver team have with the Blood Omen 2 project - if any at all? There are many contradictions and clashes, in terms of plot, characterisation and tone that really set this entry apart from the rest of the franchise. Kain is quite simple, Vorador has somehow transitioned into a benevolent revolutionary, and an ancient race are portrayed as evil aliens. When replayed, it really does seem to stand out. The great themes of Blood Omen 1, Soul Reaver 1,2 and Defiance are wholly absent - oppression, corruption, acceptance and defiance of fate, betrayal, vengeance and overcoming rage, very little of this comes across.

SR didn't have any influence on BO2. They had creative autonomy. I did raise a few facts when talking to their artists and designers (Uh.. hey.. Vorador's dead you know.. why do you have him in the beginning of the game?) But by and large the most we could do was insure consistency with things like the Reaver. I think that the lack of collaboration between teams ultimately hurt us both, and is pretty evident in the final product(s).
http://i.imgur.com/1JD4a.jpg

Did anyone at Crystal Dynamics wince when, on the back of the Blood Omen 2 boxart, the phrase "PLAY AS KAIN - THE MOST EVIL CHARACTER TO EVER APPEAR IN A VIDEO GAME" was written at the top of the blurb in big red letters? Expanding on that, were there any marketing decisions made that you felt did not do the games justice?

We all winced. (see above for marketing decisions) Doc Martens on Raziel, the stupid commercials on TV (people dying darwin-esque deaths of incredible stupidity.. but at least 'they still have their soul' *facepalm*) Like I said, a lot of people didn't get the whole 'city of lost children/lost steampunk' vibe we were going for.. And they sure as heck didn't know what the path of a Gnostic hero was. So mainly it was 'Rawr blood and souls!' Though I do have to give it to them.. I liked Defiance's cover a lot. I wanted them to make a holographic cover for SR1 that would shift realms behind Raziel, you know the kind you rotate left and right to see different images.. But it was 'cost prohibitive'. Man if only they had made a collector's box. It was after my time at Crystal that I made it a personal mission to both involve and educate marketing in the games I worked on.
http://i.imgur.com/Tcsnk.jpg

When making Defiance and conceptualising The Dark Prophecy - was it considered a priority to address Blood Omen 2's contradictions? For example, was The Seer intended to reappear to address her ambiguous dialogue? Was what-happened-to-Vorador (he is still alive and he shouldn't be) after Blood Omen 2 going to be explained?

BO2's contradictions were thrown 'over the fence' for the SR team to figure out. It made a lot of our storyline stuff hard to reconcile. Personally I resented it, but damn if Amy didn't come through and tie it all together. The ending of SR2 with Kain's new memories, the Hylden, etc.. she just did an amazing job considering the huge amount of crap she had to resolve. Defiance was meant to resolve Umah and Vorador. I took it as a personal challenge to make Umah alluring and less.. endowed. Hence my original concept of her with the hoodie and mysterious eyes. (Vorador has a thing for mysterious eyes)

http://i.imgur.com/vQNCi.jpg

Following Blood Omen 2's portrayal of the Hylden as almost cartoon-evil villains, Defiance went some way into redeeming the race in a small way - showing that they were the victims of the Ancients' viscious war, and had spent some time buried in the primitive caves of Avernus while the Ancients occupied majestic temples and aeries. We even got to hear them in the Demon Dimension for a while, horribly tormented ("This realm will render you hideous") They were still seen as villainous though, mainly due to the Hylden General/possessed Janos/Mortanius scenes. Were any further efforts (either cut from Defiance or intended for The Dark Prophecy) going to further show us a better side to the Hylden civilisation?

They would show that even the Hylden weren't as one dimensional as you think. They went through a lot of horrible pain and disfigurement in their dimension. That would be enough to drive the most noble soul mad. But they also committed their share of atrocities.. that's why there was a huge war. (And Murals! Propaganda is important) But in DP we were going to go to the Hylden realm and you could see how it affected them.. and how they were using their magic and glyph technology to keep the influences 'at bay'
http://i.imgur.com/4MgjU.jpg

One element I like about the series is that it avoids a genre cliche of over-sexualisation of the vampires. Sex simply not a factor for them - humans are "cattle", Kain and Raziel could have been straight or gay or entirely nonsexual and its not important. Blood Omen, Soul Reaver 1,2 and Defiance don't need to titillate the player with immature scantily-clad women like so many games do. Blood Omen 2 takes this in a different direction, with female designs like this and this and Kain's overt interest in Umah. Was this sexualisation of the vampires something the Soul Reaver/Defiance team intended to pursue in future games, or something best forgotten?

No we never tried to go that direction. We made the males sexy to be sure, but wanted to also make cool designs over and above that. For me, sexy isn't about how much breast or thigh you show, but rather the beauty of the design and how it compliments what you have vs trying to reveal it. We also felt if we went there, we'd lose a lot of the intellectual and higher level story. And I think everyone can see if we were right when you compare the two games. They're really for two different tastes.
http://i.imgur.com/A3qTF.jpg

Did the Legacy of Kain team have any explanations for some of Blood Omen 2's unanswered questions that never made it into a game? Such as what the Nexus Stone was, or the Mass, or what happened to the surviving vampires at the end of the game?

We had a ton of reconciliation to do. We were going to put a lot in DP.. but didn't get the chance. The Hylden Lord, having the Soul Reaver for a time, could change history if he could get it in proximity of another Reaver.. or Raziel. Think about that motivation for a second, and you'll see how powerful the Hylden Lord's ambition was. But we didn't get a chance to really explore it further.
http://i.imgur.com/caZeF.jpg

Blood Omen 2 seems to portray the Hylden Realm as a green swirling energy storm whereas we get a brief moment in Defiance when Kain enters their realm and it is a dark-red mirror of the material realm, like a "deeper" layer of reality beyond the spectral realm. What in your mind, in the Hylden Realm exactly?

The Hylden Realm is a demonic dimension that warps and distorts reality with chaotic energy. The Hyden tried and succeeded in carving out a niche that left a few of them unaltered. Using the Glyph network, they created order out of Chaos, even subjugating the native creatures there.. but it was very limited and at great cost. Eventually even their great magics would succumb to the demon dimension and warp. The Nexus stone and device were all part of their attempts to come over. The Demon Realm is not a mirror copy of the Material though, it just touches on it in certain 'weak points' like Avernus. It's not like the Spectral Realm.. it has its own areas, too and time passes differently there as well.

Hope that provides some enlightenment.

http://i.imgur.com/9ijqh.jpg

I´d like to ask, which game do you prefer more as a gamer - Legend or Anniversary?
I really like how Legend brought TR back from the dead and that it breathed some fresh air into the franchise.
Anniversary got even better and is my favourite of the new ones. That´s a really well done remake of the original.
Never got to play Underworld though.. Did you work on that one as well?
What do you think about the classic Tomb Raider games? I still play them from time to time, there is something timeless about that level design and puzzles.

Well I worked longer and had a hand in design on Legend, so that would be my answer. I'm really proud of the team, and the way Lara turned out. I especially like the XBOX 360 version because I got to create a Lara with special maps for 'wet and dirty' mode that aren't even in the PC version. It was fun, stressful and amazing all at the same time. Creating a new Lara more difficult than working with a real actress. EVERYONE has an opinion on what she should look like. But moreover I got to have fun with the locations, characters, and mythology of Tomb Raider. That's something I will always be grateful for having had the opportunity to explore. (I still would have preferred my favela opening more. hehe) I really got a chance to do it all: Lead a team, create a new character, try out new technology and make iconic posters (Lara over the waterfall is still my favorite)
Anniversary was great because we got to make the more uprezzed and realized versions of characters everyone loves. Even the controversial decisions (Pierre bald! OMG) were fun to execute and see. Plus I got a chance to collaborate with Paul Sullivan and Ben Shafer, two amazing concept artists and good friends. ANd I got a chance to make the iconic T-Rex Key Art image.
I LOVE Tomb Raider one. I still remember the first time I saw the T-Rex coming out of the fog, screamed and fumbled the controller. Poor Lara died a few times there. Mastering the roll to reverse ledge grab was amazing fun, and just having the first sense of freedom and exploration was amazing.
After that.. well I was disappointed in how stagnant it all became. The series didn't move forward with technology. It became all about Lara's boob size and how murderous she could be.
When we came out with Soul Reaver, we offered CORE the streaming technology and training opportunity with the Reaver Engine, which in my opinion was vastly superior and allowed for much more detailed textures. They turned us down flat, with a noted official saying to us 'Tomb Raider will sell more than Soul Reaver. We don't need your engine' Argh! So I watched in sadness as each subsequent TR became a quick off carbon copy of the previous.
They tried with Angel of Darkness.. but well I could tell you stories there too. It just wasn't coming together.. they had lost all stuff that made TR great. So our first goal at CD was to get that back.
I only did a few designs for Underworld before I left CD, primarily the NAGA (which got changed a lot) and the giant spiders.
There's an even bigger ARGH story there with not allowing Amy Hennig to lead a Tomb Raider team... So TR coming around to Uncharted's style of cinematic gameplay is.. oddly Karmic. Sometimes I feel like I'm only allowed to bear witness to such unfathomable events. (Like the Watcher in Marvel comics)
But overall I'm happy with the series. We'll see how the new reboot goes. I'm hoping Lara is more than a scared girl all the time and truly hardens into the badass we all know and love.
―Mama Robotnik, 08-20-2012, 04:24 PM[106]
Thanks for the really positive comments by the way everyone, it only motivates me further to produce threads like this.
So, the GoG games support 16:9 (not stretched)?
―Atolm
There's a patch here that will run Soul Reaver Widescreen.
Love the Soul Reaver games... why do I get new info but no new game =( ... maybe a CGI movie done by CD would be cool though!
―Necronomikon
Sort of related, do you remember the awesome CGI intro to Soul Reaver? The artist Boyd Lake has released some images of the assets used, and the quality of them is really, really exceptional, especially for a 1999 mid budget PSX game. Some of these characters and scenes are seen in the opening for literally mere seconds.

http://i.imgur.com/lfdeK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5DLJb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lCw7M.jpg

Did they fix controller support in the GOG version of Defiance, I hooked up a gamepad but still needed to use mouse and keyboard for some shit :(
―D3RANG3D
Seems to work okay for me. Never had the problem in the original release though.
The first Soul Reaver is one of my favorite games ever, I played the amazing Dreamcast version back then.

gonna buy these from GOG, never played Defiance and always heard about how they screwed everything and never gave the series a proper, real ending. This thread is awesome.

―Spiegel13
You heard wrong! Blood Omen 2 is the one that messes with the story in uncomfortable ways, but it can be easily dismissed as the product of a changed timeline.

Legacy of Kain Defiance is a fantastic story resolution to the Soul Reaver saga and Raziel's journey. For Kain things are slightly more open ended. but for Raziel its a stunning way for his character to bow out.

―Mama Robotnik, 08-20-2012, 04:54 PM[107]
So, from that Q&A and your posts, avoid Blood Omen 2?
―Messofanego
Its a tremendously awkward game in some ways.

First of all, the good:, its got some of the most fun and challenging bosses in the entire franchise - though not up to Soul Reaver 1 level by any means. Some of the voice acting is okay (particularly the main villain) and there is a great level called the Eternal Prison. There's some decent atmosphere in the later levels, with some appropriately tense music.

The bad: The game lacks the themes, imagination, exploration, grand architecture, cliche' avoidance and vast scale that define all the other entries. The dialogue is clumsy ("your plans crumble like dust!"), the animation of the characters is unwieldy, the levels are hugely linear and very similar to each other in terms of design. The combat is limited, mechanics like mist transformation and human possession are relegated to short gimmicks. The graphics are functional at best, and art design ranges from decent to completely abysmal (see the female Sarafan soldiers for a thoroughly misogynistic character design).

The worst aspect is the treatment of the story and lore. People play the Legacy of Kain series primarily because its one of the best stories ever told in the gaming medium, with stellar scripting from Dyack, McCullough and Hennig, and Shakespearean-level vocal performances. I know that gameplay should always come first, but this franchise manages to have a unique sense of priorities.

Anyway, the story in Blood Omen 2 is wrong. It turns the world of the previous games (fluxes in time, different shades of grey, manipulations nestled in prophecy, death and survival) and replaces them with Kain (described on the back of the box as "the most evil character to grace a video game!") fighting sci fi aliens who are trying to take over the world.

The people who made the game didn't play or care about the other games, and ignore vital essential story developments. There is a character in Blood Omen 1, who is executed near the end of the game in a mandatory cutscene, in an essential plot development that goes on to shape Kain's motives and actions for the next few games. The death of this character, shocking and unstoppable, is a vital part of the lore.

In Blood Omen 2, this dead character is alive. There is no explanation given, at any point, implicitly or explicitly as to why he is alive. Nothing. Its the biggest plot hole in the series, you could drive a truck through it. It appears that the developers of Blood Omen 2 hadn't actually completed the first game, as they didn't get to the vital cutscene explaining his death.

There are other colossal plot difficulties too, and Kain's characterisation is utterly awful. The series is best played without it, frankly.

The Blood Omen 2 team had a vision of a sci fi epic in a medieval city, and forced the franchise to conform to that limited, typical and narrow concept.
―Mama Robotnik, 08-20-2012, 11:38 PM[108]
Thank you for this fascinating info Mama Robotnik! this amazing series and the tenacity and passion brought to finding out more about it by people such as yourself and blincoln have provided me with literally years of entertainment.

In my youth I was a part of a community dedicated to this series, moderated by a certain Divine Shadow :) Have been a fan of LoK since BO and always will be. Thanks again.

―Cozzy
Haha yeah those were the days. I've tried to contribute what I can, but blincoln is the master - the content he has over at Legacy of Kain: The Lost Worlds never ceases to amaze me!
―Mama Robotnik, 08-21-2012, 12:37 AM[109]
A bump for the GOG purchasers

A fan has created a modified exe for Legacy of Kain: Defiance that enables widescreen support:

https://wsgf.org/forum/forums/gaming/requestdiscuss-game-solutions/23078/widescreen-support-legacy-kain-defianceThis is literally the first time the game has ever been in any Widescreen format so its quite a cool development - it should allow more of the wonderful architecture in the game to be visible.

This stands alongside the Soul Reaver Widescreen patch, and the Soul Reaver 2 Widescreen patch that is expected to be released in the next few days.

I'll edit them into the OP.
―Mama Robotnik, 09-03-2012, 11:27 PM[110]
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/legacy_of_kain_blood_omen_2/

Blood Omen 2 is now on GOG. For enthusiasts only - some decent levels, and fun mechanics and bosses - but far far from the best of the franchise.

I am really hoping that a tinkered Blood Omen 1, fully compatible with current gen PCs, is on its way.
―Mama Robotnik, 09-04-2012, 03:47 PM[111]

#### Soul Reaver may have been the most overly ambitious game ever. (research thread)Edit

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#### War for Nosgoth (Legacy of Kain) in AMD Drivers; "Nosgoth" in Steam DB [Psyonix Dev?]Edit

Update:

So this composer recently worked on a title "Nosgoth" for Square Enix and development outsourcing firm Psyonix (can't imagine they are a lead dev on a AAA).

―cuyahoga
---

First development,

Entirely spotted by Corlagon over at the Eidos forums.

Short version - in AMD's latest Crossfire Application Profile, there are references to multiple upcoming games in the files. There are multiple references to Nosgoth and War of Nosgoth:

http://i.imgur.com/n7IIVb9.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/JrST6wW.pngNosgoth is the world in which the Legacy of Kain games (I've heard of them) takes place.

Second development

Originally spotted by ArjanN on GAF, is this:

http://i.imgur.com/1WTHvG2.jpg

The image is from SteamDB.info, a website that catalogues updates to the Steam database. The NOSGOTH image is part of the Steam Database.

The shape behind the NOSGOTH text is the symbol that adorns the Pillars of Nosgoth:

http://i.imgur.com/jJmXHFr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MKcl4A0.jpg

Third Development

From months ago of course:

Square Enix registered a web domain called War for Nosgoth.

What does it mean?

Something is happening. That it has Steam entries and references in AMD's latest drivers would suggest something far far sooner than I'd have anticipated. If this was the big Legacy of Kain sequel that fans had been waiting for - one needing years in development and lots of PR - I doubt we'd be seeing references in drivers and on Steam this early.

Could War for Nosgoth be some sort of upcoming PC game, not an "AAA" title but something akin to a F2P MMO or the like?

Not optimistic by this information. Hope I'm wrong.
―Mama Robotnik, 05-26-2013, 09:33 PM[124]
I'm definitely in agreement that this sounds like an online MMO, or Free to Play, or something internet based.

If they game is being referenced in drivers and on Steam, then a release is upcoming. If this was the single-player AAA exploration/fighter/adventure that we have been waiting ten years for - then there would be a long-term PR campaign - announcements, previews, etc - before it ever got to this stage.

―Mama Robotnik, 05-27-2013, 12:59 AM[125]
How optimistic would you be if it was a full single player game? I mean don't get me wrong, I would still try the game, but just out of curiosity. It wouldn't get any bonus points for being from one of my favorite franchises at this point. So much of what made the originals great is gone.
―theSlacker
I'm probably going to buy it and try it regardless - unless the connection to the series is so tenuous that its distasteful to purchase.

Then again I bought Blood Omen 2 on day one - so perhaps my love for the series is so strong it overrides my common sense.

Hoping for good, but expectations aren't high.
―Mama Robotnik, 05-27-2013, 12:49 PM[126]
This is spotted by the Legacy Of Kain Wiki Facebook pace.
Kevin Riepl's LinkedIn page, which earlier today listed "Nosgoth (VG) Square Enix/Psyonix" as a project he worked on, now reads "unAnnounced Title (VG) Square Enix/Psyonix" instead.
It seems a certain publisher may have something to hide...
Cover up in progress.
―Mama Robotnik, 05-27-2013, 09:37 PM[127]
I've been doing some quick research into Psyonix - don't have a lot of time tonight - just spent an hour using my research techniques.

I have found this render on a portfolio site belonging to one of Psyonix's art staff. I'm going to do something that I don't usually do - and decline to link to the site specifically - as I don't want to get the person who has uploaded it into trouble.

http://i.imgur.com/EObvMKC.jpg

The image was displayed in a portfolio under the heading "vampire creature concept". Fans of the Legacy of Kain series will note that winged vampires are significantly important to the lore.

If (and I stress the if) this is from War for Nosgoth - it could represent a few things - a devolved Razielim, a twisted Ancient, or even Janos Audron himself post-burning within the Demon Dimension.
―Mama Robotnik, 05-27-2013, 11:49 PM[128]

#### The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread)Edit

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#### Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement TrailerEdit

I knew this was coming.

As George has mentioned, I was invited to Square Enix studios along with a group of some of the most established Legacy of Kain fans in existence - some of which have dedication to the series that makes me seem like a casual. It was a very memorable weekend, in which people all over the world who never expected to meet each other, got to. Square Enix funded this completely.

(At some point I'm going to do a write up on our visit to the studio, and what it was like for a hardcore community to meet for the first time.)

My expectations were in check for a multiplayer game when I arrived at the studio, which helped. I was given the chance to play the game and had fun, particularly with the Alchemist and Turelim characters. It was fun to launch a wall of fire towards an advancing Dumahim, then have a Razielim pick me up, fly into the sky, and drop me to my death. It was also (devious) fun to scavenge the blood from my team mates' kills.

I had fun, thought it controlled well, and would like to play it further. I've not played any online battle games aside from Half Life 2 Deathmatch, a bit of Team Fortress 2, and some of Killing Floor (if that counts). I thought it was quite a different experience to them.

I'll post more impressions when I do my proper write up (going on my holiday really soon). I've given my feedback too - I want more story components, and more links to the previous games (visual and story). I am hopeful that we'll get a single-player one day, and the loss of Dead Sun (and moreso The Dark Prophecy) still stings. Having played this though, as I said, I had fun.

Disclaimer: Square Enix paid approx £35 for me to get the train to London and back, and approx £98 for my hotel room overnight. They provided snacks, a goody bag with miscellaneous Nosgoth paraphernalia (mouse mats, t-shirts, etc). They also held a tournament which my team won, and we were each given a sealed Kain action figure from the Soul Reaver release line as a prize, not sure how much it is worth. In no way did I agree to write anything regarding the game, and at no point did Square Enix try to coerce or encourage any positive article or posts. I think this disclaimer is important.
―Mama Robotnik, 09-25-2013, 10:02 PM[139]

#### My visit to Square Enix London (Legacy of Kain related)Edit

There was an event a good few weeks ago now that I wanted to write a thread about. It was one of the most surreal experiences I’ve ever had as a gamer. This is a bit different to my normal threads, it might be a bit too LiveJournal like for some tastes. Personal recollections are not my usual writing style, so it might come across as a bit clumsy. There's also a disclaimer at the end too.

The Context

The Legacy of Kain series had been dead since the release of 2003’s Defiance. During the franchise’s peak (1998-2002), there was an online community of thousands of gamers discussing the intricacies of every line of dialogue. We hacked the games, created our own save files, discovered masses of cut content, and pieced together abandoned plot points. Artists and musicians produced some fantastic fan works, amateur swordsmiths forged their own versions of the Soul Reaver sword, and the clan symbols littered throughout the games inspired banners and tattoos. It was a fun time.

As the years passed by, this community faded as gamers naturally moved on. A few dedicated fans kept records of the story and behind-the-scenes discoveries – long-lived websites such as TheLostWorlds, Dark Chronicle, Legacy of Kain Wiki, The Ancients Den, and others kept updating. I had occasional contact with many of these dedicated fans over the decade. We were happy that Amy Hennig (Soul Reaver) found new fame at Naughty Dog, and saddened as Denis Dyack (Blood Omen) rose and fell. The discoveries of the cancelled The Dark Prophecy and Dead Sun, and the seemingly-unsubstantiated rumours of a Soul Reaver Remake, were interesting but disheartening. Companies were bought and sold, and the Legacy of Kain series seemed to be a dead IP in the vaults of Square Enix. There were rumours of a multiplayer game of some sorts, which seemed very unusual.

The Invitation

We get to Summer 2013, and something bloody strange happened.

I received an ambiguous email from a very pleasant Square Enix representative, asking if I’d like to be involved in something. Given that I had only recently exposed the cancellation of Dead Sun – I was somewhat surprised at the gesture. I replied that I’d like to know what they had planned.

The explanation was given: Square Enix wanted to host the first ever Legacy of Kain fan event at their London studios. They were deadly serious about this. Don’t live in the UK? No problem, we’ll pay for your flight and hotel. Don’t live in London? No worries, we’ll sort out a train. They were very, very eager to do this, and had invited the webmasters of the remaining major Legacy of Kain websites along with myself.

They told us by email that they’d been working on Nosgoth – which indeed was a multiplayer game, and wanted to use this event to present their game to us. It was a really intriguing prospect: a chance to play a game before its completion, to attend a game studio, and most excitedly, to meet international LOK fans who I had interacted with online for the last ten years and never expected to actually meet in person.... for free. I’d have been mad not to accept.

I spent a few weeks speculating. Would this UK branch of Square Enix actually know anything about the series? What if I turn up and it’s awkward, particularly with my expose’ on Dead Sun? What if the new game is terrible, what would I say?

The Evening Before

Time eventually passed and the weekend arrived. I got the train down to London and accepted my reservation at a hotel near to the Square Enix Wimbledon studio. The invited Legacy of Kain fans – a group of approximately fifteen people, had agreed to meet for the first time ever in the evening, down in the hotel lobby.

I didn’t have any life experience to prepare me for this. Fifteen so people, who have never met each other in person, from vastly different backgrounds. Would we get along?

It was surreal, we clicked immediately. On a long table in the hotel restaurant, we chatted for hours about our love for the Kain games. Almost everyone favoured either Soul Reaver 1 or Blood Omen 1. Everyone mocked Blood Omen 2 mercilessly (“Did Kain have Brain Damage in that game, serious question?”). We chatted about our concerns about the multiplayer game we were about to see. It was quite strange that, for a series so centered around blood, killing and time-travel revenge, the fans were some of the nicest and most approachable people I’ve ever met. I spent a fantastic evening with them.

The Day

The morning came, and it was time to visit Square Enix. We were welcomed at the entrance of the Wimbledon studio, and led through some very nice looking offices. The walls had a lot of artwork for upcoming games, the new FF and Kingdom Hearts, and a wall dedicated to the new Thief. There was a life-sized statue of Lara Croft, and some development Xboxes near one of the biggest TVs I’ve ever seen. We were led into a large room with massive banners, our first look at the artwork for Nosgoth.

Square Enix’s community manager George Kelion (aka Monkeythumbz) introduced himself, and the Nosgoth team – a company called Psyonix. There was a ten-computer LAN setup in place, loads of snacks and drinks, seats and a presentation screen. Everyone got a drink and mingled for about twenty minutes, and we settled down for a presentation.

We watched an introduction trailer (which I think was very similar, if not identical, to the one which was eventually released a few weeks ago). We were invited to ask questions, and it became quite quickly apparent that they knew their series lore. I began to form an impression: the team had been commissioned by Square Enix to make a free to play multiplayer Legacy of Kain game. The team took this non-negotiable concept, and aimed to weave it into the existing mythos as devoutly as they could. They had researched obscure tidbits of background story only present in early releases of the SR1 instruction manual, and had established an entire faction on a very obscure Blood Omen character. They’d used some of the concepts that never made it into some of the games. They talked of the themes of the series, and how they had enjoyed looking through all the games to find a place where the story of their multiplayer war could fit in.

Their enthusiasm was somewhat infectious. The most important thing would be, of course, if the game was actually going to be any good. A structure was established. We’d be split into teams, and would play some matches against one another. Winners would go through to a final match to win a prize.

The Game

Finally, I had the chance to play the game. Nosgoth is a third-person deathmatch game of sorts, set in the era between Soul Reaver’s intro sequence, and the resurrection of Raziel. Each round consists of two matches: in the first match Team A play the vampires, and Team B play the humans, and vice versa in the second match. Both sides goal is to kill each other, as you might expect from the genre. If you are interested, I can describe the experience of playing each side:

Humans: My favourite faction. Humans come in (so far) three classes, and all use projectile weapons. They have supers such as spawning walls of flames, or binding vampires in launched manacles. They have comparatively little health compared to their vampire counterparts, but can recharge their health at multiple healing sites within each level. The best strategy we seemed to work out, was to keep the humans together, and move round as a team picking off overconfident vampires from a distance.

Vampires: Tough units who make up for their lack of projectiles with brute force. They have far more exotic abilities than the humans – stealth, flight, running up walls to name a few. They have a lot of health, but can only regain lost points by drinking blood out of human corpses. This leads to an interesting dynamic in which vampires race to the same corpse, creating tension in the overpowered team that contrasts the harmony of the human faction.

We only played rounds in two environments, and I developed a fondness for two units in particular: The Sisters of Anacrothe – A cult of pyromancers who can turn the environment into fields of vampire-burning fire; and the Turelim – a brute force vampire unit that charges into battle with its human-crushing bulk. I started seeing hints at deeper strategies, such as vampires pouncing out on humans near the human healing sites, and humans keeping watch on corpses, and taking down vampires who tried to feed on the blood within.

Despite little experience with the genre, our team won. I definitely had fun with it.

As the day drew to a close, we were given the chance to give some direct feedback to the developers. Some things they couldn’t tell us, but a repeated point was that they hoped the free to play model of the game would allow considerable expansion if it was successful. I can’t remember all the raised points, but a recurring concern from the fans was the need for more visual imagery that echoed the rest of the series: more familiar locations, vampire clan symbols, etc. A really good point raised by a fellow fan was for the inclusion of female vampires in the ranks. Unfortunately at this point I had a train to catch, and had to leave a short time before all the other attendees.

It was a remarkable weekend, and probably my most surreal experience as a gamer. As much fun as it was to visit a development studio, and play a genuine work-in-progress game, my most memorable moments were meeting fellow fans from all over the world for the first time, all paid for by Square. The Legacy of Kain fans are awesome people.

The Feedback

In the weeks that followed, Square Enix sent out feedback forms and asked for our individual input. It made me think about the game, and put into words what I would like to see in the final product. Away from the shock of just being at their studio, the excitement faded and I had a chance to cement my impressions.

First of all, it’s a fun game. When the last round ended, I was ready to play further. I felt that there were nuances to some of the classes I was only just beginning to uncover.

Is it a Legacy of Kain game though? I think it’s on its way to being. At the visit to the studio, I saw a passion from the development team for the story of the series. I want to see more of this passion. In my written feedback, I expressed a wish to see more story, in whatever form fits into their multiplayer model. How about unlockable story chunks that tell tales of Nosgoth’s war tied to Steam achievements, or lore linked to lost artifacts found in the field of combat? How about statues and murals telling us biased and romanticised events of recent past – a recurring lore mechanic in the previous games – to give the world more depth? How about gradual changes to the appearance of high-level vampires, showing transitionary stages between their human origins and their eventual bestial devolved appearances in Soul Reaver?

I told Square Enix that I hoped to see more character classes, and more familiar environments. I also hope hope hope that the Free to Play model doesn’t lean towards pay to win. I hope there are more combat modes, and more imaginative super abilities. I feel they have a good start to build on here. I want more abilities, more classes, and more depth to the fiction of the war. Having met the team, I am optimistic that this is achievable.

The Conclusion

My desire for a single-player Legacy of Kain is paramount, especially after an absurd amount of false starts – (and these cancelled games are just the ones I know about!). I wanted Kain II, Dark Prophecy and Dead Sun, and still hope for a vast single-player epic in my favourite game universe starring a certain time-travelling vampire. Nosgoth is not that game, but it is something else of note: an enjoyable and quite different game that will be free, looks good so far, plays smoothly for something that is still work-in-progress, and shows us a different era that (in my view) settles in quite well with the pre-existing lore. I want another single-player game, but I want to play Nosgoth too.

The Disclosure

I think this bit is really important for transparency. Square Enix paid approx £35 for me to get the train to London and back, and approx £98 for my hotel room overnight. They provided snacks, a goody bag with miscellaneous Nosgoth paraphernalia (mouse mats, t-shirts, etc). They also held a tournament which my team won, and we were each given a sealed Kain action figure from the Soul Reaver release line as a prize, not sure how much it is worth. In no way did I (or anyone else who attended as far as I am aware) agree to write anything regarding the game, and at no point did Square Enix try to coerce or encourage any positive article or posts. I originally intended to post this thread ages ago but other commitments (holiday abroad and a poorly cat) have kept me mostly offline.

―Mama Robotnik, 10-22-2013, 12:55 AM[140]
Thanks for the nice comments. I enjoyed what I played - I'm certainly not saying that every LOK fan will - the decision to go with a multiplayer game is highly highly divisive. I can only speak for myself when I said that I had fun.
The act of giving out all expense paid trips and goodie bags is more blatant (and effective) coercion than anything else they could do TBH. Not that I'm saying it colored your impressions, but that was their intention with this, just to point out the obvious.
Well, they obviously wanted to make a good impression (though I'd object to "all expense paid" as inaccurate). If I didn't enjoy what I played and saw some potential in it, it would have been completely pointless.
―Krusenstern
Well, assume I'm lying if you like, there is literally nothing I can say or do to prove that Yosuke Matsuda didn't give me a yacht full of gold in order for me to go on GAF and say that I enjoyed their multiplayer game but see potential areas for improvement - and list those areas in detail.

If it helps, I'm still going to be posting any material regarding the cancelled Dead Sun that comes my way, and am still devastated by its cancellation.

―Mama Robotnik, 10-22-2013, 01:49 AM[141]
―rocketskates
―SalsaShark
is the cat ok?
―ManThatYouFear
Sorry, left you hanging there. She's fine now, being hand fed antibiotics (like trying to give medicine to a tornado made of claws), and she should be recovered by next week!
―Mama Robotnik, 10-22-2013, 09:51 PM[142]

#### Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video)Edit

UPDATE #1 - A member has worked on the game!

UPDATE #2 - A new source has contacted me with a lot of interesting behind the scenes information, some of which gives some context to the cancellation.

UPDATE #3 - Click here for the latest updates, including the Square Enix E3 2012 Teaser Trailer, a video of the build up to a boss fight, and some interesting artwork!

Original Post:

http://i.imgur.com/h2EurRm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/A9g0N3Q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mVDZ5hR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PGZPJDa.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/oMoqE3l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h0JLVgm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/1LgGf86.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3voSXUv.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/VR440Rs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qKMUwcx.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/KsU3xRt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hTOXSIF.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/rotd7iy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/n8K47OL.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/oOQKmPO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jhAm2Rx.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/6JiOPA9.jpg

Disclaimer

For a quick recap - please see my previous research threads on this game here and here. The discoveries in this thread are the result of years of research and connecting to sources. For any external websites: absolutely feel free to report on the story if it would interest your readers, I’d appreciate credit and a link back to this thread if that’s okay. Many thanks.

This is the first time that gameplay has ever been seen by the public.

Warning for mild in-game nudity – a character’s breast is seen.

The linked material was supplied by a source who worked on the game in some capacity. The video, information, screenshots and art in the this and earlier threads have been provided by a variety of sources. They have my gratitude. A source explained that the game was in a pre-alpha state when it was cancelled. Any abrupt framerate drops and jumps would have likely been tidied up before release, as the game still had a lot of work ahead of it. Also, I have had to connect multiple video files together and upload them, this is not something I have done before, so any jarring jumps or drops in quality may be due to my inexperience at this video joining and compiling process.

Discussion

The video contains some of the opening story sequences, exploration, combat and an array of gameplay mechanics from Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun. The game was cancelled by Square Enix in 2012 after three years of development at Climax Studios, with Crystal Dynamics acting in an advisory role. The game was not projected to meet Square Enix sales projections, and was scrapped, to the enormous disappointment of staff who had dedicated a lot of work to the project. One source recalled that staff came in at weekends to continue working on the game, while higher ups already knew it was cancelled. The game had included a multiplayer component, an online asymmetrical deathmatch mode completely disconnected to the story and era of the single-player campaign. This was the only part of the project to survive the cancellation, and has now been heavily expanded upon and released as Nosgoth.

The story of Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun seems to be along the lines of the following (with some information from insider sources and some from my knowledge of the franchise): Kain and Raziel's time-travel throughout Legacy of Kain: Defiance appears to have stabilised Nosgoth's far future. Humans spread across the land once more, and plant life began to re-appear. The vampire monsters returned to more elegant vampiric forms, though some maintained their bestial ancestors' hunger for souls. The vampires continued to block out the sunlight using huge ever-burning smoke stacks. The conflict between predators and prey continued as it always had done. Humans were able to regain enough control of the wilderness to re-establish trading towns, and became enamoured with worship of the obscured Sun.

The respite faded, and mass sterility plagued the human race. Asher, a human, was able to achieve a miracle and father an unborn child. From unseen machinations, a Saradin Soul-Eater vampire is sent to kill Asher and his family (with orders form on high to make the assassination purposely look like a massacre) but something goes wrong: As the vampire attempts to consume the human’s soul, a freak occurrence results in Asher taking complete control of Gein's body - leaving Gein’s vampire spirit impotent as ghost that only Asher can see and hear.

Their journey together across Nosgoth's future would have initially explored who sent Gein to kill Asher, and why. It would later link to the wider Legacy of Kain mythos. There would be substantial connections to The Elder God, the Spectral Realm and a mysterious vampire child. The large theme running throughout the story would be the religious beliefs of Nosgoth. Climax were instructed by Square Enix to introduce a new protagonist to the series (as Crystal Dynamics had done thirteen years ago with Raziel in Soul Reaver), but the events were to be a continuation of the established Legacy of Kain storyline.

The area shown in the video is The Wetlands. It acted as a gigantic hub, connecting the different areas in this region of Nosgoth together. Such areas would have included: "dungeons", huge boss encounters, intense use of shifting between the Spectral and Material realms, masses of exploration, combat and hidden/earned upgradable abilities. The game was described as being intensely story focused, and inspired greatly by Soul Reaver and Zelda (to quote a source: "think if HBO did Zelda"). The game was originally intended to be a XBox 360/PS3 retail release (note the use of XBox button icons in the video) but as development progressed, the game was strongly considered to be PlayStation 4 launch title.

Lore

http://i.imgur.com/gONLoxs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mSSYzwf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xkCY81g.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5WkyFaX.jpg

Observations

There are numerous allusions to the previous games:

• One of the echoes of the dead, a market seller, claims to be selling produce from Willendorf. Willendorf is a huge city from Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain (1996), and has never been mentioned in the series since then. The assassination of Asher, disguised as a purposeless massacre but orchestrated by higher powers, mirrors the human Kain's own murder by brigands directed by Blood Omen's Mortanius the Necromancer.

• Gein’s execution by being cast into water – and the subsequent fall and acidic burning of his flesh - is a clear allusion to the opening sequences of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (1999). Concepts such as soul consumption, the spectral realm, the decaying world, evolving vampires, blacked out skies and a hopeless future are all continuations of the themes started in the PlayStation classic. In the video, Gein holds a sword that looks extremely similar in shape to the physical Soul Reaver blade. Dead Sun appears to have been considered internally as the successor of the original Soul Reaver.

• Vampires with black wings and the ability to fly – a power Gein himself manifests halfway through the video – were a pivotal plot point in the past segments of Soul Reaver 2 (2001). The sterility of Dead Sun’s humans while faced with an overwhelming adversary, is a parallel to the sterile Ancients of Soul Reaver 2.

• The echoes of bustling cities and marketplaces, humans going about their lives while brigands protect their civlisation, echoes the city of Meridian in Blood Omen 2 (2002). The green glow around one of Dead Sun’s powerful enemies, is highly reminiscent of the corrupting possession energies (Blood Omen 2 spoilers) of the Hylden race.

• The worship of false deities, the cancerous presence of The Elder God, the abandonment of gods and ritualistic sacrifice all feature throughout Legacy of Kain: Defiance (2003). A decade later, Dead Sun seemed intent on continuing these story themes.

My Take

My personal thoughts: It is outright devastating that this was cancelled, as so much effort seems to have gone into creating a vision of Nosgoth's future that could succeed where Soul Reaver left off. There are substantial gameplay mechanics on show – combat looks fun, the exploration potential appears to be vast, and the power of flight across such sprawling landscapes looks nicely realised. The implementation of the spectral realm, with immediate controlled transitions between the worlds of life and death – looks absolutely incredibly implemented – a true contemporary implementation of Raziel’s most defining power! The story looks interesting too, it appears that Climax were intent on building their own lore and giving it space to breathe, while later in the game bringing explicit connections to Kain, the Elder God and other important parts of the mythos. Until more content surfaces, it may be some time before we know what these connections are.

I know that some people would have preferred to see Kain back as the playable character, but recall the success of Soul Reaver: Kain's legacy is equally fascinating when explored through his own eyes, or the eyes of others. Raziel's own introduction may have caused consternation in some when he was revealed as Soul Reaver's playable character, but through him we experienced one of the best stories in the series. The optimist in me would have hoped that the same could have been said about Asher/Gein.

Some of Dead Sun continues to live on in Nosgoth. For example, Gein’s mastery of flight is an innate ability of the Razielim vampire clan, and the wall-climbing mechanic is a basic power of all the vampire combatants. A number of Dead Sun’s graphics assets are repurposed in Nosgoth’s human cities (note the white sun mural shown in the Razielim link appears throughout the Dead Sun video). As an aside, Nosgoth started as the multiplayer companion game to Dead Sun, but has since become a unique independent entry in its own right. It’s clearly absolutely not the expansive single-player adventure that Legacy of Kain fans have waited for since 2003’s Legacy of Kain: Defiance, but I find it fun to play, appreciate it as not being pay to win, and generally like its additions to the lore. For example, the lost vault of the Razielim is a story addition that I feel works very well indeed. With many scrapped projects, so much work is forever lost. Although Dead Sun's cancellation is extremely disheartening, at least some of the work that went into it lives on.

I also have some concept art and renders from portfolios of artists who worked on the game - these are still being processed, so expect an update to the thread over the next day or so. Thanks for reading!

―Mama Robotnik, 02-23-2015, 01:00 PM[143]
I worked on this game. Glad something has come out of it, even if that's just excitement from people who can see what we were going for. (And this was running on 360, so remember that - the creaking you can see was the engine running two entire levels at the same time, so that you could shift realms at any point, something that UE3 really isn't designed to do.)

I hope somebody leaks some videos of other parts of the game. I don't have any, annoyingly, but others who worked on it might have a video of The Temple Of The Whore Saint, which was one of the dungeons. The thing to remember is that this bit is a small chunk of what was essentially Hyrule field - an expanse designed to lead from place to place. The person playing this is really taking their time with a bit of the game that has zero missions - the actual structure was far more Zelda/Soul Reaver than this might appear.

―whatevermort
The game looked great, I'm sorry it was cancelled. I have a really specific question if you are able to answer it.

I was told something off-hand, could you clarify it for me? Someone said that one of the plot points of this game would have involved Kain fighting his younger self. Is there any truth in this or have I heard wrong? Also, just to broaden the question a bit, would Kain have definitely appeared in the game? What would have been his role, if so?

―Mama Robotnik, 02-23-2015, 08:17 PM[144]
I've just been contacted by a new source. They provided a screenshot I had never seen before as evidence of their authenticity. They have given me permission to post the following:
- This game was pushing the 360 and PS3 to the limit. A combination of sheer level scale, the twin realm mechanic and the ageing Unreal 3 engine meant it was a struggle to get this running to an acceptable level. A commitment to next gen would have possibly seen the game avoid the chop as we would have been freed from some hefty technical restraints that were holding the game back in a number of areas, including the visuals. Conversely, I can see why switching to next gen would have made the numbers even less attractive to SE top brass, given the far smaller install base.

- Having just finished Shadow of Mordor, which I found hugely enjoyable, I have to say it was eerily similar to the open world (hub as we termed them) areas of Dead Sun. From the art style, to the switching worlds, the environment traversal, character ability progression, combat and numerous other aspects, SOM was incredibly close to half the game we were making.

- The Dungeons were the other half. Given how much work obviously went into SOM, one of the most polished games I've played, I think Dead Sun was too ambitious, which probably also contributed to it getting the axe. It would have been a monster of a game - the wetlands hub area you've already seen was just one of 3 or 4 entirely different open hub areas, never mind the various dungeons that were planned. They all had distinctively different looks, puzzles and boss fights. The team wasn't big enough to pull that lot off in a reasonable time frame, to the quality level required of a AAA release.

- Which is all a great shame, as the design of the game was excellent and meticulously thought through. Whilst not a straight sequel to previous LOK games, and not featuring previous favourite characters, it had more than enough depth and references to previous games to both satisfy (most) fans and really bring the LOK series back to life in a modern format. It was certainly a lot more than a re-skinned Assassin's Creed or Batman, even if it did share some aspects with those games. But there we go, the vagaries of the games industry. Those design docs will still be around somewhere at Climax (or possibly elsewhere) - all it would take is someone with a spare $100 million or so and that'd see it up and running. ―Mysterious Source Really really interesting stuff, and perhaps gives some context to the cancellation. Thank you again for contacting me, I really do appreciate it! ―Mama Robotnik, 02-23-2015, 11:18 PM[145] Some very interesting additions regarding Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun, thanks to a very helpful new source. First of all: The Square Enix E3 2012 Teaser Trailer. http://i.imgur.com/EJamuLO.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/fGhKh3r.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Y3mpFwG.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/eiPS14M.jpg http://i.imgur.com/HMwNBEm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/1VK3ox1.jpg YouTube Link From what my new source has explained, this was made externally by Square Enix's CG department, and may have been the first the world would have seen of the game. "Black Cloth" was the codename for the game during its development at Climax, probably in place until they cemented the final Dead Sun name. My interpretation of the trailer: its the final right of passage of the Saradin vampire race, the moment where they are either burned to death by water, or master their power and survive as a wraith. The reference to Soul Reaver is very direct. The next video is: The Pre Boss Battle CutsceneThis video was created for the vertical slice demonstration, and showed the build up to a boss battle. Note the pregnant woman being guarded by the creature. Given that sterility was a theme of the game, I can't help but wonder her significance. Next, a few more pieces of artwork. This piece shows a number of different locations that would have appeared in the game. These huge structures would have appeared in different places across Nosgoth: http://i.imgur.com/prEXv3w.jpg And these show something unique: a city in which humans and vampires co-existed. Any conflict, battles, feeding or killing were harshly responded to by rule of law. It was a place that Gein would visit many times on his journey. http://i.imgur.com/huJxtYt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/WWUUslN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/COQWU1J.jpg That's all at present. ―Mama Robotnik, 02-25-2015, 12:57 AM[146] Thanks for the update, interesting codename for the game and that there was a teaser made for the game for E3. Goes to show how much is held back at E3's. ―Dsyndrome Yes, I actually find it crazy that they had their CG team make the trailer, and then cancelled the game outright. I do wonder how sudden the decision to cancel the game was. ―Mama Robotnik, 02-25-2015, 01:15 AM[147] I'm hoping to do a bigger update with more content and sources over the next few days, hopefully with some more details of the story if it all works out. Regarding the comment regarding the "lead" apparently hating Soul Reaver. It doesn't make any sense to me - the videos I posted are full of allusions to Soul Reaver, both direct and subtle: -"I am a Soul Reaver" and accompanying dialogue -Burning smokestacks blocking out the sun. -The water burning vampire death. -Vampires with wings -The spectral realm, complete with Sluagh-like creatures -Activating a forge-like object -A Soul-Reaver esque model sword -References in the lore screenshots to the "wheel of life". If a project lead really hated the original game, why on earth would any of the above be present? It's completely contradictory to the evidence. I've noticed criticisms across the internet of the story and the game not looking enough like the previous games. My perspective: Story and Script I don't know the story (at least not yet), but from watching this video, neither do any of us. We've seen half an hour, with a brief flashback and a few dialogue scenes. We have very little information as to what would have happened after the point at which the video ends. The dialogue we have seen is from the lower classes of Nosgoth. In Blood Omen/Blood Omen 2, the lower classes did not speak with the sophistication of the main characters - the beautiful dialogue was almost always reserved for the more intelligent and educated protagonists/antagonists. Since we haven't met any of them in the video, I doubt that the vulgarities of the vampire hunters would have reflected all characters. As I said, I'm hoping to have some new information regarding this at some point and post it. Doesn't look like the previous games The video was an alpha. People have been saying it looks nothing like the previous games. Blood Omen 1 didn't look like Blood Omen 2, which didn't look like Soul Reaver 1, which didn't look much like Defiance. There are similarities in character design throughout SR1/2/Defiance, but the environments are vastly varied with a range of influences. I don't see as much of a unifying art style across the games as others apparently do. One thing to post that might be interesting though is this: http://i.imgur.com/EnyZHOi.jpg (Credit to Lord Aevum for the discovery) This is a screenshot of a gothic structure from Legacy of Kain Dead Sun. Its from a portfolio website. It reminds me of the run down Sarafan Stronghold in SR2's demon future, and Vorador's Mansion in Defiance. Environmental allusions to previous games were probably going to be more apparent in later levels of Dead Sun. I'm hoping for more videos in the future, which hopefully might give us a clearer look at some interior structures. I'm just speculating. I have no idea what would have been in the final game, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just disagree with some of those opinions. ―Mama Robotnik, 02-28-2015, 12:37 AM[148] #### Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story informationEdit I’ve done two threads on this game already; one in 2013, with artwork and UI graphics, and another earlier this year with two videos. Also, this thread about all the cancelled games in the series is relevant if you haven’t done the background reading! Over the last few years I have found a lot of assets from the game. What really eluded me however, was the story. Given the importance of plot in this of all franchises, I really wanted to know how the cancelled game connected to the wider Legacy of Kain mythos. A source has contacted me, one who has been very helpful in the past and whom I have absolutely verified the legitimacy of. They were able to shed some light on the story of Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun: The vampire lord Kain, at some point after the climax of Legacy of Kain: Defiance (the final released single-player game in the franchise), travelled back in time to murder his younger self. The result of this time-travel suicide was the alternate timeline seen in Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun. Kain himself would have not appeared in the game directly at all. There would be some vague hint that part of him existed, and he and Raziel would be alluded to as myths from prehistory, but according to my source, the Kain that we know from the previous games would be entirely absent. This lore information is very startling, and clashes massively with the established story of the series. Kain’s constant fight to survive in a world that hinges on his demise, and the rules of time-travel and timelines that were so beautifully written by Amy Hennig and her team in Soul Reaver 2, appear to be disregarded. Also the idea of a Legacy of Kain game, apparently without Kain, seems misguided. One thing to keep in mind however is something an earlier source mentioned to me a few years ago - that Climax Studios had been directed by Square Enix to keep their story distant from the lore of the earlier games. This might explain the reason for the strange story direction - I wonder if keeping Kain out of the game directly might have been something that was non-negotiable? The recent source also added that the story for Legacy of Kain : The Dark Prophecy (cancelled way back in 2004) would have been a much more direct sequel, continuing Kain’s story directly after Defiance. Former Crystal Dynamics staffer – and extremely helpful Q&A provider - Daniel Cabuco, has confirmed that The Dark Prophecy would have seen Kain descend into the Hylden prison reality, to learn more about the mysterious race before its descent. Finally, the source offered some commentary on the cancellation of Legacy of Kain : Dead Sun. Though other sources earlier alluded that production was mainly suspended for budgetary reasons, the current source says that there were quality problems with the game – and after tens of millions was spent over three years – Square Enix pulled the plug. The company was reportedly happy with the art and audio, but had significant issues with design and narrative. So I am told. And that’s it. If you worked on the game (or any other) and would like to get some information/art/anything else out there, please PM me and I’ll be glad to help! I have a few concept pieces to post, some already on the internet (new to GAF) and some more recent finds. I'll try and post them into the thread over the next few days. UPDATE - New Concept Art and renders a few posts below. ―Mama Robotnik, 11-12-2015, 07:58 PM[149] Yeah I agree. The last scene of Kain at the end of Defiance does not click with this planned plot direction. ―Mama Robotnik, 11-12-2015, 08:08 PM[150] Awesome work as always Mama Robotnik. I'll echo the comments by others in this thread that the supposed plot anchor for the game, that of Kain killing his previous self and being absent from the game , sounds a bit odd. I thought the central hook of Dead Sun souunded interesting with the character duality, but having a LOK game without even a Kain cameo is just wrong. One question for you Mama, by chance do you know who the actors were for the main characters in Dead Sun were? It's been nagging at me since the gameplay surfaced earlier this year as I somewhat recognize one of the voices but can't place my finger on it. ―Cardon I don't know, sorry! ―Mama Robotnik, 11-13-2015, 12:08 AM[151] Thanks for all the nice comments! So what could SE do to prevent further fruitless projects like Dead Sun? How about using a proven and popular concept! One game series in the LoK franchise was much more successful than the others - it was Soul Reaver for the PS1. I firmly believe that a Soul Reaver 3 would be widely recognized and could be huge if marketed correctly. That spectral/puzzle solving element wasn't copied by other games in the recent years, so it would feel very fresh. Even a remake would be a good start to see whether it even makes sense to keep this IP alive. But we'll never know because after over 12 years we're still left with absolutely nothing. ―Taker34 I appreciate your passion for the series! But I don't think Soul Reaver 3 is the correct solution for a few reasons: (1) The "Soul Reaver" story ended in Defiance. (2) Continuing on a story from the last game in the series - Legacy of Kain Defiance, released twelve years ago - would be alienating for new players, especially with so much unresolved. I'd advocate the following possibilities myself: (1) Re-release of Blood Omen, remade as a digital download game for all formats from PSN, XBLA, Steam, iOS, Android, etc. This is the first game in the series, its a 2D overhead zelda-esque game so it shouldn't be anywhere near as expensive as a massive AAA production. Its the foundation of the Legacy of Kain story, and would serve as a vital introduction to modern players as to what the world of Nosgoth is all about. Certain gameplay elements could be updated of course, such as the cumbersome menu system, the loading times, and perhaps increasing the depth of the combat system. The Blood Omnicide fan project has some nice ideas as to how the original game could be look with a modern engine. http://i.imgur.com/XeGGRP1.jpg (2) Soul Reaver was by far the most financial successful of the games, and is still a very solid game today. A remake/remaster would be a great idea - its still a very compelling story in a fascinating post-apocalyptic fantasy world. They could add additional value to the package by having two modes: (1) a remake of the original Soul Reaver; and (2) a remake with all of the cut content and the original intended (false) ending. Any remake/remaster would be a great opportunity to excise most of the block puzzles. Fanartist SaitoMaks gives us an idea of what it could look like: http://i.imgur.com/uDIRtRJ.jpg (3) The "Doctor Who" option - the distant continuation. Set the next game either in the very far future or the very far past, so that for new players it is effectively a new franchise, but the further you delve the more continuity presents itself. I call this the "Doctor Who" option as this is exactly the approach that show took when it came back on the air. It introduced itself effectively as a new television program, and over time reintroduced many many aspects of its 50 year history. This wouldn't please old fans who want immediate story continuation, but would result in a game for new and old fans that may be (or may not be) financially viable. (4) A HD collection of Soul Reaver 1, 2 and Legacy of Kain Defiance. Again, cheaper than an AAA release but might reinvigorate interest in the franchise. Just a few ideas. ―Mama Robotnik, 01-24-2016, 04:21 AM[153] Yeah but this bollocks is the bollockiest. ―dan2026 Just to emphasise, sources from a good few years ago said that the publisher wanted Dead Sun to be disconnected from the events of the earlier games. I have wondered if this is a possible reason for the strange time travel explanation for Kain's absence? ―Mama Robotnik, 01-24-2016, 12:01 PM[154] This approach was already taken, at least partially, by the first Soul Reaver. Distant continuation in the far future with a new protagonist, but as you play you find out more about the history of Nosgoth, and Kain (who, in the beginning, could have been any despot without a backstory). It's probably what I'd like most for a new entry in the franchise: you start playing as a new character, learn about the Elder God, and eventually meet up with Kain, who has been fighting the God for a long time, but was still missing *insert MacGuffin here* to set his plan in motion. Useless to say, the missing cog has something to do with said protagonist. That's it. Sprinkle a few distant references to previous entries here and there for additional world building and to keep long time fans happy, and you're set. ―Jocchan I think its probably the best way to go for a new AAA game. I hope fans understand that a direct continuation from exactly where Defiance left off is absolutely not financially viable - the story that was going to be Legacy of Kain The Dark Prophecy is never going to come about. Still, Nosgoth's timeline is incredibly rich. Developers could pick a multitude of settings to start a distant continuation. A few examples: -A human living in Nosgoth's forgotten history, trying to live his/her life while the god-like Ancients and Hylden battle their soul war. The Elder God senses that the time of the old races is coming to its end, and whispers to the human protagonist ways to accelerate the end of the war. -Vorador prequel - the adventures of the first human vampire. The era would be a few decades into human rule of Nosgoth, the Pillar Guardians are still trying to understand what it means to rule a world that is recovering from the wars of fallen gods. Enter Vorador, a human turned into a vampire by necessity of the dying Ancients as a way of preserving their bloodline. (Denis Dyack actually expressed an interest in this path about 15 years ago) -Early Kain Empire era. Play a newly-recruited vampire to one of the clans, as the Vampire Empire is conquering the planet. For some reason, the protagonist is different to the rest of his/her vampire kin, and fights to hold on to their humanity - as Kain himself did in his fledgling incarnation. -Post Soul Reaver era. Play a human in the post-apocalyptic era in which Nosgoth is on the very edge of collapse. The Hylden are returning, time-travelling Ancients are emerging having followed Kain's timestream, and the Elder God is preparing for a huge Soul buffet - it will consume enough souls to allow it to detach itself from Nosgoth, and be so engorged that it can sustain itself through the long journey between dimensions - to latch onto a newer, fresher world, to begin its parasitism again. You have to stop it. That's me just throwing ideas out, but I like to think they could all work as distant continuations. This option is also the absolute only viable option if a game should be made. You can't throw out a new game in a dead franchise which has had no significant release in a decade and expect it to make any kind of money. It would have to be a reboot or a so seperately placed entry that it would be a fake reboot. ―Vinterbird Agreed. Though I think there is room for Blood Omen / Soul Reaver remaster, to generate interest in the mythos. ―Mama Robotnik, 01-24-2016, 05:39 PM[155] ### MonkeythumbzEdit #### The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread)Edit I’ve been watching this post and I thought you might want a bit more information. I can confirm that Dead Sun was a project which had been in development - but which was cancelled. I know it’s disappointing to hear about these things out of context, and whilst some of the details released are accurate - some details are not. You know game projects can be cancelled for a variety of different reasons and I know it’s very hard to tell from images and info alone, but in the end LoK: Dead Sun just wasn’t the right game, at the right time… but you’ll have to take me at my word on that, I’m afraid. Obviously, it’s not usual for assets from cancelled games to be released, but given that there’s a lot out there already I thought you might appreciate seeing a few more images that were taken from the previously in-progress game. As you’ll be aware, we’re currently working on a multiplayer game firmly set within the Legacy of Kain universe called Nosgoth, which we’re very proud of. It’s grown in size and scope since its initial conception and we’ll be talking more about it in the future. While we’re not working on a single-player Legacy of Kain game right now, that doesn’t mean it’s not something we’d look at making in the future. http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/BC_BG_S_Gein_05_zps7aed63f6.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/SabaraVista_Human_zpsda2d276a.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/SARADIN_FINAL_zps7acebd23.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/CHR_CONCEPT_VOLTAIRE_zpsbb47ac02.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/CHR_CONCEPTS_LOST_SOUL_V3ampV4_zps97656889.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/CHR_CONCEPTS_SUCCUBUS_MR_FRONT_zps520853ef.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/NME_VH_IPT3A_zpsa0909a0b.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/Enforcers-F300311_zps723dabc3.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/Female_Trooper_final_hires_zpsc124174f.jpg http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y432/WarForNosgoth/Master_zpse77fea3b.jpg ―Monkeythumbz, 06-19-2013, 01:01 PM[156] Thank you Monkeythumbz! Are those artworks from Dead Sun or War For Nosgoth now? Because they're uploaded to a photobucket album called "WarForNosgoth"... They're all taken from Dead Sun. I created that Photobucket account just for this purpose and used the first name I could think of tbh. ―Monkeythumbz, 06-19-2013, 03:32 PM[157] So I’ve seen some comments in some areas of the games media interpreting Nosgoth’s existence as something that was somehow ‘pulled’ from the cancelled Dead Sun game. Obviously it’s always fun to try and suggest conclusions, and that's completely understandable when there’s not a lot of information around (which will always be the case with something like a cancelled game). But I can categorically confirm that Nosgoth was a separate game from the beginning and is very much a unique game in its own right. It was related to the single-player game in terms of a shared art direction, but was always set in an entirely different time period and features different mechanics, characters, levels and gameplay. It isn’t and never was just a multiplayer version of the single-player game. Personally, I can’t wait to show you exactly what we’ve been working on. EDIT: Just for clarity, had Dead Sun shipped then Nosgoth would have been its multiplayer companion game. However, to categorize it as the "the multiplayer component of Dead Sun pulled out and fleshed out" isn't really accurate, nor does it do the game justice IMHO. ―Monkeythumbz, 06-20-2013, 06:10 PM[158] Wow that's... unexpected. Can you tell us if there was any multiplayer planned for Dead Sun at all? Or was it simply a single player experience? ―marrec Ah, my apologies, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Had Dead Sun shipped, then Nosgoth would have been its multiplayer companion game. However, to categorize it as the "the multiplayer component of Dead Sun pulled out and fleshed out" isn't really accurate, nor does it do it justice IMHO. ―Monkeythumbz, 06-20-2013, 06:26 PM[159] Would you, and George too, possibly be interested in being on a radio show I'm part of to talk a bit about all of this? All of us on the show are fans of the LoK series and could easily engage in a discussion on the series and these cancelled titles. ―Psykoboy2 Just PM'd you :) ―Monkeythumbz, 06-23-2013, 10:20 PM[160] RIP Nosgoth, you were actually quite good. :_;7 ―Zero-ELEC ^This. Awww, and to think Nosgoth was pretty decent too. Too much shit hidden behind micropayments for me, but the design of the game itself was fairly solid. Mostly that horn at the one-minute-to-end though. ―Freeza Under The Shower Nosgoth's gameplay was loads of fun and it looked great too, full credit to Psyonix and Square Enix London Studios for that. Seeing the game shut down is sad, but it didn't have sympathetic market forces behind it to ensure acceptance by the community. It just goes to show what happens when you try radical experiments within the main branch of an existing, pre-established IP. What is up with this series that games keep getting cancelled? ―More_Badass The Curse of Kain has struck again… Very interesting read. The root of the IP is very nice. I wonder sometimes if this series is not one that could use a full reboot. Whether they reboot the series or keep it going I wouldn't be against more game in this universe. I only played Soul Reaver but I remember liking it back in the days. ―Jolkien A reset is preferable to a reboot IMHO, however the best idea I've heard is still for a game set around the time Kain first raised his Lieutenants and set about conquering Nosgoth. Wouldn't be hard for newcomers to pick-up the story there, even with the current continuity in place. Not really. Nosgoth wasn't Legacy of Kain. :P Out of respect for the poor devs who worked hard on this, I will refrain from saying what I really think of these news. ―Morrigan Stark Nosgoth was made with no less heart, care, attention or effort than other games under the LoK banner. You may not have seen its appeal, but many long-time members of the LoK community did. FWIW, heaps was done to fit Nosgoth in with the lore established in LoK:BO1, LoK:SR1 and LoK:SR2 - quite possibly more than ever happened with LoK:BO2, tbh. ―Monkeythumbz, 04-11-2016, 10:52 AM[161] #### Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (PS4, cancelled) / Legacy of Kain: Nosgoth (PC, upcoming)Edit Great work, again. Monkeythumbz is a cool guy, other Community Managers should take note. ―Hot Coldman Aw, shucks. ―Monkeythumbz, 08-14-2013, 11:42 AM[162] Claiming that Nosgoth compares most to Unreal Championship 2 has me seriously hyped for the game. ―Cisce Unreal Tournament style multiplayer sounds good, sucks about the SP game but it's just one more name on a long list of potentially great cancelled games. ―SparkTR Hey everyone, just to keep your expectations in check, I merely mentioned Unreal Championship 2 as Nosgoth is more similar to that in terms of its gameplay than (a) previous Legacy of Kain games, (b) MMORPGs, (c) MOBAs or (d) RTS games (all of which had been the focus of speculation over on the Eidos forums). I mean, I could have just as easily said Team Fortress 2, despite Nosgoth being in 3rd-person. The point is my intention was purely just to keep you from building up any false assumptions, which wouldn't do anyone any favours. We'll be revealing fully comprehensive details about the game in due course - as Mama Robotnik said I'm very limited as to what I can tell you about the game right now. I know that having a shroud of secrecy over the game can be frustrating, but it's only a temporary situation and in the meantime we really appreciate whatever patience you can afford us while we knock our plans into shape. Vae Victus! ―Monkeythumbz, 08-14-2013, 01:08 PM[163] That's a shame really. I would've loved another SP LoK game whereas I'm never going to touch an MMO. Also, it will probably fail miserably. Gold rush is over, there is no more room next to the bigshot MMOs out there. ―Bedlam Nosgoth is not an MMO. /smh ―Monkeythumbz, 08-14-2013, 02:36 PM[164] As for any DotA or LoL-style Legacy of Kain game - kill it with fire. ―glaurung Nosgoth doesn't look or play anything like DoTA2 or LoL. ―Monkeythumbz, 08-15-2013, 10:34 AM[165] #### Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement TrailerEdit Hello GAF, sorry I've kinda been busy with the whole site and social media channel launches today, Going to read through this thread now and answer however many questions as I can. Please bear with me. Oh and don't forget that we'll be holding a Live Q&A on Monday 30th September via Twitch where you'll be able to ask us your questions directly - full details on the official blog here. Right, gimme a mo' and I'll have a read of this thread. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 05:09 PM[166] So it's a reskinned Gotham City Imposters? It's probably fun enough to play, but man it will be a hard sell to fans. ―Vinterbird Heh, you're telling me. I remember when I saw the game for the first time and yeah, I was pretty skeptical too but it is very fun to play (...but then again, you'll be thinking I would say that anyway). What I can tell you is that we're being very respectful to the pre-established lore and that Nosgoth is set in a previously unexplored era in the LoK timeline. It takes place during Raziel's fall down the Abyss/Lake of The Dead. When he enters the Abyss, Kain;s Empire is in full swing. When he re-emergfes, it's inm ruins and its clear Kain has been absent for quite some time (as evidenced by his lack of devolution following Nupratros cuerse as evinced by his Lieutenants. Nosgoth shows you what happened inbetween, not least what happened to the Razielim. As a game it looks fine, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Legacy of Kain. The degree to which they've gotten the art direction wrong is astounding. ―Dantis If this is about the three fingered Vampires versus five fingered Vampires. then I can answer that. The Vampires in Nosgoth are still fledglings, albeit powerful ones¸ and thus don’t exhibit the advanced three-finger evinced by Kain and his Lieutenants. Equally, they have yet to mutate and devolve into the more beastly forms seen in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver as the effects of Nupraptor’s curse have yet to become so pronounced in this period (although the effects are most clearly visible amongst the Razielim, the oldest of all the Clans). This is why the Vampires (aside from Vorador, but incvluding Kain) have five fingers in Blood Omen and Blod Omen 2. Also I'm sure someone who is more versed in the series lore might be able to clarify, but wasn't Raziel's clan wiped out immediately after Raziel himself was cast into the lake? If that's the case how is his clan in this game with wings? Raziel explained that the rest of a vampire's clan evolved the leader's gifts after the leader himself. Raziel was killed immediately after getting his wings. ―Rei no Otaku It’s not so much that the Razielim are still alive as that they have not been comprehensively wiped out yet. On Raziel’s supposed execution, the other Clans fell upon the now leaderless Razielim in power-grab for their territories and influence. This infighting, which took place over a few hundred years, entertained and distracted Kain’s precocious Lieutenants – scant time for an immortal Vampire, but more than enough time for and allowed enough distraction for Humanity to recoup and redevelop into a credible opposing force. Realising that air support would be needed to recapture the lands now lost to Human forces, the remaining Razielim were themselves forcibly recruited by the other Clans so as to help them prevent the Humans advancement. The ultimate state and fate of the Razielim has yet to be revealed. Also... What if I want to play Raziel? ;) ―Elfteiroh Raziel isn't around in this era, he's falling down the Abyss. Okay, page 1 done. Onto page 2. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 05:24 PM[167] Hope for what? Even if Nosgoth is a success, then we'd probably get more of this gaudy crap. I'm letting the initial disappointment get the better of me ... yeah maybe it will turn out to be fun. ―Lord Panda The decision to make any game is based on a number of factors – the right idea, the right team, the right market conditions all need to be in place to make it happen. The Legacy of Kain franchise is one we are huge fans of and we would genuinely love to bring another narrative experience in that world if all the elements were in place. If there was something the series had, was beautiful gothic art direction: Welcome to random ass wood constructions: ―Relaxed Muscle You're looking at a rebuilt Human settlement, rather than a Sarafan stronghold at the height of Humanity's grip on Nosgoth. The land of Nosgoth features a variety of architectural types, each of which have changed and shifted over the course of its long and storied timeline. Nosgoth is set in areas that are known to exist but are previously unexplored, which is why they may seem unfamiliar. Equally, Nosgoth is set during a period in which Humans have regained autonomy in certain parts of the land and pose a credible threat to the Vampires, and the architecture represents this cultural setting. Nevertheless, the land is still very much in a state of corruption, as evidenced by the ecological damage visible in each map. The maps playable in Nosgoth are set in regions referenced in previous games in the series and are known to fans, although they do not contain specific locations players would have visited in the Blood Omen or Soul Reaver games as Kain or Raziel. I'll consider it if a Simon Templeman announcer pack is available. ―Draft Oh gosh, that would be the coolest thing ever! Probably unlikely though, he's too big a deal to just be an announcer and Kain's not around during this era. Also in that video 'i really like the grenade launcher and flamethrower!' Fuck that shit.. ―Nokterian Um... actually there were flamethrowers and hand cannons in Soul Reaver, found in Zephon's territory. lmfao - they just disabled comments on the youtube link in the past few minutes. Guess they weren't too keen on cherry picking "Yay" from the waves of "ugh, why this!?". ―Geedorah Actually it's just that with four social media channels on which to interact with the community plus several independent forums (like this one), there's only so many places one CM can be! Mama Robotnik on suicide watch. ―Ein Bear Funnily enough, we brought him in to the office recently for a hands-on with the game. I'll let him share his thoughts about Nosgoth in his own time. Finally i get the answers how kain could be alive at the end of defiance! Hopefully we find a way to save raziel from his eternal prison or maybe even learn more about the hylden oh man i am sooo excited! The story coud go in soo many directions ....... oh ....online mulitplayer ..... (﻿ ͡°_ʖ ͡°) ―daniels Nosgoth is set during the reign of Kain’s Empire, a few hundred years after the opening cut-scene to Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver and a few hundred years more before Raziel emerges from the Abyss (a massive whirlpool in the middle of the Lake of the Dead). Okay, onto page 3 (...sorry, got distracted by Twitter). ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 05:58 PM[168] Seems to me like the kind of thing were a suit says "We need a free to play multiplayer game! The DOTA2 is doing really well! What IPs do we have?" ―Snapshot King We honestly feel that the Legacy of Kain universe is rich and deep enough to support all kinds of gameplay experience, and we want to introduce it to a wider audience than just fans of single player games. Grenade launchers and flamethrowers I died a little. ―BibiMaghoo As I mentioned earlier, hand cannons and flamethrowers were present in the first Soul Reaver. We had a Square-Enix rep talk about this game in a Mama Robotnik thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=594576&page=3&highlight= Monkey plz... What? It's the truth! I don't know what people expected of the title when the majority of the dev team gone, the lead writer gone and Tony Jay dead. I mean shit on SE all you like, but to expect LoK to come back as it once was is a pipedream. ―studyguy The last LoK game was made a long time ago and the original development teams and talent have all since moved on (or, in Tony Jay's case, sadly passed away). As such there is no talent from those titles directly involved with Nosgoth. With Nosgoth we’re making a different kind of game and so we made sure our development partners were experts in that field, which is why we chose to work with Psyonix. You won't come back after you did this. Also, why are you even trying? ―Krusenstern Because I really believe in this game and I want it to succeed. I'd like for all of you to give it a chance before slamming it so hard. This isn't too dissimilar to the reaction Blood Omen fans had to the original Soul Reaver, IMHO. Monkey, I was cautiously optimistic about this before now. After the trailer though... I mean, I know WHY it was done... but it doesn't help. It does look fun but I don't know if I would be able to HAVE fun with it, ya know? ―marrec Seriously, that's what I thought at first too. But the first time you climb up the side of a building and execute a Savage Pounce with the Reaver before ripping your opponent's face to shreds with your claws, or the first time you immolate a Tyrant with the Alchemist's (totally lore-accurate) flamethrower, those concerns melt away. I get the concept of the Unreal Championship comparison now. This is more like late 90's/early 2000's shooters, but in third person and with melee abilities. ―Nirolak SEE? Somebody gets that comparison now!! You have no idea how happy you've just made me. Shit, there's a page 4? Slow down you guys! ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 06:11 PM[169] I think it probably is, but I don't think that's what they spent on it. So Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun was a game in development at Climax for 3 years, and Psyonix was contracted to make a disconnected multiplayer mode for it. Dead Sun was canceled, and Psyonix's game got a major boost in development time and budget, because Square Enix liked what they were doing. However, since it was at one point the same project, they seem to have wrote off all the money they spent on the singleplayer (Dead Sun), as none of that is ever shipping. I think it's the circumstance of how it came to be due to Dead Sun. You will notice they removed "Legacy of Kain" from the official title though, as I think they realized that. I don't think Square Enix's community managers make high level business decisions. ―Nirolak Yeah, all of this is pretty much bang on in terms of accuracy. Honestly, the saddest thing about this (disregarding the brutal slaughter of the Legacy of Kain series) is the unimaginative weapons. A flamethrower, grenade launcher and a crossbow that fires like a machinegun... Really? ―DeaviL We want to strike a balance between what's fun to play with and what makes sense in terms of the game's lore and setting. Since you're answering questions - why did you chose to present the game with a map that has nothing in common with the previous LoK games? Why not use a (not even THE) cathedral, temple or some outlandish place that at least looks like LoK? When you take the risk to alienate an entire fanbase with a title, one would guess that the first impression was rather important to you. ―xyla Hey man, its cool that you came in and tried to ease the fans' fears and all that but... You're fighting a losing battle bro. I don't consider myself a HUGE LoK fan, but I have played each installment of the series save for the first and enjoyed every minute of it, and this isn't what I want from the series. Theres almost nothing a multiplayer game can give me that I'd want from the LoK universe. The strength of the series were its storytelling, worldbuilding, its puzzles. This game doesn't seem to offer any of that. I just get the feeling you're leveraging the LoK universe, its starved fans, for some quick cash. ―Pinko Marx I am a HUGE LoK fan (that's why I'm the CM) and I honestly hope that when you get the chance to try the game for yourself, you might change your mind. Anyway, thanks for your kind words, I sincerely appreciate your candour. I only have a single question. What is your honest answer as to why you folks disabled the like bar, and first had comments be approve only, and then entirely disabled? ―Snapshot King I didn't want a wall of negativity to be the first thing people who are new to the game saw when they watched the video on our YouTube channel. I'd much rather people be allowed to come to their own conclusions about the game rather than have their opinions coloured in advance. After all, there are loads of places for people to vent about the game or to express their displeasure to us directly on multiple forums and even our own official forum, Facebook page and Twitter feed. I hope you understand. Come on man, you know why. ―Grief.exe Indeed, but I'm not ashamed of my decision and I stand by it. I have to think of what's best for the game, after all. What's best for the game is always my number one priority. Want to see if I get the same bs response I got on their facebook page. There's only so many places a CM can be! A CM doesn't have to moderate youtube comments or a like bar, they're there to get a tone of a video. The only reason you would disable it is if you're aware that the reaction would be overwhelmingly negative and have no confidence in the product, and are afraid that reaction will damage the games success, like it did with something with DmC. Hoping for maybe a more straightforward and honest answer than I got earlier, but hey, its this guys job to do damage control right? ―Snapshot King Ha, I didn't realize you were the same guy! Okay, well you have my answer now. And yes, it's just me interacting with everyone online right now and I can only be in so many places at once. Although, truth be told, GAF is my favorite. I've been here since '06/'07 in various guises. Hey Square Enix Guy.... ―Lost Fragment I have a name, I'm called George. How does one introduce new players to a series in which all the old games of it's original genre, type, and tone, are not available on modern platforms (save for the GOG ports for PC) and that series is no longer being made? It's like saying that King of Fighters Maximum Impact is there to help introduce people to Fatal Fury or Art of Fighting. ―Snapshot King While I haven't played the games you mentioned, it's because we want to bring more people in for any possible future titles set in the IP so that we can have the widest audience possible. Page 4 done! Page 5 WHAT? Onwards! ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 06:39 PM[170] It looks interesting to me, but I'm usually pretty positive on games before I play them. I also haven't played any of the LOK games, so I'm also not let down by any nostalgia. Asymmetric teams is something I applaud in MP games. Furthermore, within the teams themselves, having classes that can do different types of navigation (vertical climbing, flying, etc.) is pretty neat. And, as someone who doesn't play MOBAs, I'm really glad this isn't one. It's not a military setting either, nor is it a WOW/DOTA/LOL fantasy-type setting. All around, it looks much more exciting than a lot of MP games, in my opinion. The only thing I'm a bit cautious about is F2P, but if handled correctly, it might be inoffensive and unobtrusive. ―soultron So, as I said on the Square Enix blog, Nosgoth is a free-to-play game - but it's NOT pay-to-win. We made the decision to go to free-to-play to break down barriers and let as many players into the game as possible. One of the key goals has been to create a fair experience that doesn't penalise players who don’t spend money in the game, as such Nosgoth doesn’t include items, weapons or abilities that are inherently better (aka supremacy goods). I'm printing that out. Has a continuation of the original universe/plot line ever been discussed internally? ―Maxim726X Nosgoth is a continuation of the original universe. You know what, I'll give a big speil on exactly where/when Nosgoth is set in the timeline at the start of the live Q&A on on Monday 30th September. Regarding the original plot line with Kain and Raziel... hey, I'm just a community guy, I don't find out about stuff until way past the green light process. I'd be surprised if it hadn't, though. I've read the thread and answer me this.... Why choose a game like this for another Legacy of Kain/Nosgoth universe title? Why wasn't a single player adventure game very similar to past titles made instead of this? I mean, it's been so long since Defiance that coming out with a multiplayer arena battle game is just pure stupidity. I think less people, including myself, would be less hostile to this MP game if it were included as part of a SP campaign or if it were released shortly after a SP Kain/Nosgoth title. But instead, years later when everyone is yearning for another LoK/SR type of adventure (see Darksiders as a somewhat decent example of something similar) we get an MP game the majority of fans not only don't care about, but reject. Again, the game would be okay if.... - It were released as part of an SP adventure. - Released alongside or shortly after an SP game. - Was not associated with the LoK universe in any shape or form. This is equivalent of releasing Halo Wars if Halo 3 came out in 2002. Makes no sense. ―Darkmakaimura We know that while there are lots of fans of single-player gaming, an increasing number of gamers are looking for a more connected and social experience. Sometimes they don’t play the single-player part part of a game at all, focusing just on the multiplayer portion. We were interested in exploring whether the world of Legacy of Kain could offer something to these gamers, and the more we thought about it the stronger the idea sounded. Previous games in the franchise have very much focused on the Vampires and other inhuman races of Nosgoth. We wanted to show more of the Human side – at various points in history they’ve fought fiercely enough to nearly wipe out the Vampires after all, so it’s not like they’re not a formidable fighting force. Equally we thought it would be interesting to experience Nosgoth not from the vantage point of the world’s rulers but from the perspective of the people who fought in these wars. Multiplayer gameplay seemed like a good fit that would let new players into this universe. It was obvious gameplay needed to be asymmetrical, that our two sides needed to feel very different – this wasn’t just about the lore, but about making sure the gameplay felt new and exciting. Future F2P multiplayer cash-ins or future actual games? You're aware of the incredibly awful stigma (with good reason) that the phrase "wider audience" contains right? It plays directly into the reasonable assumption that this is merely a shameless grab for a slice of the DOTA2 pie. It's disingenuous at best to imply that, hey, if this game that has nothing to do with anything you care about save for the IP does well, maybe you'll get your old franchise back! It reeks of the Capcom Test with stuff like Umbrella Chronicles. As to your earlier response, I appreciate your honesty in trying to avoid the wall of negativity. That being said, I hope you don't get your hopes up that that wall goes away. DmC attempted to do everything to assuage the haters (which were damn near everyone) that hey! Look! Its still the thing you wanted!, and it was still a sales failure (in comparison to its earlier games) despite getting higher review scores because people didn't want it to exist. And I can tell you certainly that I much rather this not exist than I did with DmC, particularly after the cancellation of Dead Sun. ―Snapshot King Future F2P multiplayer cash-ins or future actual games? You're aware of the incredibly awful stigma (with good reason) that the phrase "wider audience" contains right? It plays directly into the reasonable assumption that this is merely a shameless grab for a slice of the DOTA2 pie. It's disingenuous at best to imply that, hey, if this game that has nothing to do with anything you care about save for the IP does well, maybe you'll get your old franchise back! It reeks of the Capcom Test with stuff like Umbrella Chronicles. As to your earlier response, I appreciate your honesty in trying to avoid the wall of negativity. That being said, I hope you don't get your hopes up that that wall goes away. DmC attempted to do everything to assuage the haters (which were damn near everyone) that hey! Look! Its still the thing you wanted!, and it was still a sales failure (in comparison to its earlier games) despite getting higher review scores because people didn't want it to exist. And I can tell you certainly that I much rather this not exist than I did with DmC, particularly after the cancellation of Dead Sun. ―Snapshot King Okay, firstly I LOVED the new DmC, so consider me a Dino afficionado. Plus, I'm a huge fan of Ninja Theory's work (heh, just when you thought I couldn't make myself any more unpopular in this thread...). I'm well aware that we've a massively uphill journey before we enter Open Beta, however I'm hoping that at that stage - when everybody will be able to play the game for free - opinions might change, simply because the game is such fun to play. Fun has to be a priority when making a game, after all. As for the "wider audience" thing... please read between the lines. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 06:56 PM[171] This might be a spin-off of sorts, but it doesn't shut out the likelihood of a new entry, does it? ―ash_ag No, not at all. Monkey, are you guys porting this game to Linux? See: Valve's latest announcements. ―Grief.exe No plans as yet, but anything's possible. It's already slipped my mind, but do we know for sure that Humans are played from third-person perspective? ―soultron You do now ;) That being said, certainly appreciate your candor and your attempt to answer everybodys questions, especially those from bitter, cynical pricks like myself, and I wish you the best in managing what is going to be a neverending torrent of shit from people like myself and anyone that is within our power to get to listen to us. ―Snapshot King Thanks! And so, TO TWITTER! ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 07:08 PM[172] I swear to god I hear them say it was a MMO. Sorry guys. ―silver.tongue No, not me, I've only ever said that it isn't an MMO. So, basically, after this many years without a LoK game and this is what gets decided on because of 'oh, socializing!' Last I checked, there are tons of single player games that are highly successful so it still boggles my mind why you'd want to settle on an MP game of a series known for its SP campaigns, especially when it comes to story, exploration and voice acting. This is completely blowing off the fans. Well, guess what.... Screw those people who don't play the single player because you know what? That's not who Legacy of Kain and the Nosgoth universe is for in the first damn place! ―Darkmakaimura I prefer to think of this as the Star Wars: Battlefront of the Legacy of Kain IP, via Unreal Championship (*not* Tournament) 2, only with team-based asymmetrical combat. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 07:29 PM[173] You're not going to entice people into Nosgoth this way. You're going to detract them. ―Darkmakaimura Time will tell, I suppose, and I hope you don't mind me saying that I hope you're mistaken. Interesting to note, and you may be pleased to hear this, but Ninja Theory seems to be working on an Enslaved PC port. I spotted an Enslaved app on the registry and it has been receiving constant updates. We will see. ―Grief.exe Oh gosh, I loved the hell out of that game. Sequel, pl0x. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 07:39 PM[174] Looks nothing like Legacy of Kain. Great job. ―Foffy I'm just going to quote myself here: The land of Nosgoth features a variety of architectural types, each of which have changed and shifted over the course of its long and storied timeline. Nosgoth is set in areas that are known to exist but are previously unexplored, which is why they may seem unfamiliar. Equally, Nosgoth is set during a period in which Humans have regained autonomy in certain parts of the land and pose a credible threat to the Vampires, and the architecture represents this cultural setting. Nevertheless, the land is still very much in a state of corruption, as evidenced by the ecological damage visible in each map. The maps playable in Nosgoth are set in regions referenced in previous games in the series and are known to fans, although they do not contain specific locations players would have visited in the Blood Omen or Soul Reaver games as Kain or Raziel. ―Monkeythumbz Hey man, not going to tell you how to do your job or anything, but I mean, credibility is an issue with a game like Nosgoth, you may not want to kneecap yourself like this XD ―Snapshot King You'll hate me when I say this, but not do i love NT's output, but I also think Tameem Antoniades is a great spokesperson :-O ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 07:45 PM[175] What worries me if I am mistaken, then we might just end up with more of these kind of games for this universe. Because, by your logic it's all about the 'connecting' and 'social experience'. That's worrisome. I could give a shit about interacting with people. I want to interact with the world. I want a good story, good characters, exploration, good acting - everything that made Legacy of Kain since the original Blood Omen was released what it is today. ―Darkmakaimura We are absolutely not blind to the desire for a single-player LoK experience and, to quote myself again, we are huge fans of the LoK IP and we would genuinely love to bring another narrative experience in that world if all the elements were in place. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 07:52 PM[176] Let's put it this way: If it had nothing to do with LoK, how much attention would you be paying to it right now? ―GuitarAtomik While your point obviously isn't invalid, I'm going to quote myself again as it really is why we think Nosgoth is a credible entry into the LoK series canon: Previous games in the franchise have very much focused on the Vampires and other inhuman races of Nosgoth. We wanted to show more of the Human side – at various points in history they’ve fought fiercely enough to nearly wipe out the Vampires after all, so it’s not like they’re not a formidable fighting force. Equally we thought it would be interesting to experience Nosgoth not from the vantage point of the world’s rulers but from the perspective of the people who fought in these wars. Multiplayer gameplay seemed like a good fit that would let new players into this universe. It was obvious gameplay needed to be asymmetrical, that our two sides needed to feel very different – this wasn’t just about the lore, but about making sure the gameplay felt new and exciting. ―Monkeythumbz ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 08:05 PM[177] Can you please let my favorite franchise stay dead? What next? A Kart game based in Nosgoth? ―soulassssns Kain Kart complete with gothic vehicles and Dragula playing in the background. ―Darkmakaimura Beat you to it: http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs32/f/2008/204/f/4/Raziel_Racer_by_hgrungh.jpg ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 08:34 PM[178] What a load of crap. That is not a reason to opt for a multiplayer only game. In that sentence ALONE you have enough of a premise to set up a good, solid SINGLE PLAYER experience. Its like taking the tag line for a Star Wars movie and not bothering to develop the story so instead you created a Multiplayer, generic game. Well maybe not generic but its definitely in the same vein as FORGE and SMITE. Nothing original, nothing new. ―09-25-2013, 08:45 PM We also wanted to show you the troops that made up the Vampire Legions referenced in Soul Reaver's manual, as well as detailing the events of what occurred during Raziel's centuries-long fall down the Abyss and thought it would interesting to enable you to play as both sides. As such, an asymmetrical multiplayer game made sense to us. Plus, we also thought it would make for a pretty kick-ass game. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 08:45 PM[179] I see the point that you're making, but how do you grow brand awareness without utilizing any of the brand's strengths? Either commit to a real, well made successor and count on the quality of the product and dedication of the fan base to carry it, or forget it. I'd rather this new game be a new IP and take real risks than go this cowardly route. Again, to the SE community manager, no offense intended to you and your team. ―Bravocado None taken, but the same could be said of Soul Reaver in relation to the original Blood Omen (and it was, at the time... albeit mostly in magazine letters pages). BY THE WAY: I am *officially* copying and pasting a lot of my answers here for use elsewhere online. So, if you see me repeating myself, remember you heard it hear first. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 08:56 PM[180] Oh, lord... ―FlyinJ What? Have you read Astro City? It's a bit like that (only, y'know, a competitive, team-based Human vs. Vampire free-to-play online asymmetrical multiplayer game set in the brutal fantasy world of the Legacy of Kain series). ;-) ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 08:59 PM[181] Oh yeah, by the way... A few weeks ago, I invited a bunch of hardcore LoK fanatics (what can I say, I was in good company - go on, test me on the series' lore, I dare you) to actually PLAY THE GAME (dun dun durrrrr) at our studio in Wimbledon, London. These community members were drawn from the Eidos LoK forum, so if you think YOU'RE an LoK fan, try making a forum that's home to a series in which a game hasn't been released for a decade your number one online destination. Anyway, the first report is online - go read it here before you slam something entirely based on an Announcement trailer.* Game: Nosgoth (PC) (Pre-release review) *Btw, for full disclosure, I totally do this too about other people's games. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 09:08 PM[182] Mama Robotnik shall be our ambassador All in favor? ―Cameron122 As I said earlier in this thread, he came too and will be sharing his impressions here in due course. He's a terrific guy, actually - really, really incredible bloke. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 09:11 PM[183] Aw goodness should have read more pages. On my phone, pardon. ―Cameron122 HOW DARE YOU! I DON'T EVEN... Heh, just kidding :) ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 09:14 PM[184] Whatever you think of the franchise or whatever, why the heck would I ever want to play humans? Boring third person shooter play style or demons who can leap like the Hulk or fly? Tough choice. ―Einbroch You know the Alchemist has a flame thrower and an alchemical hand-cannon, right? She is ALL KINDS of bad-ass. You saw in the trailer how a Scout popped off the head of a Reaver from a distance? Seriously, the Humans are pretty deadly at range. Dead Sun was cancelled and Nosgoth became a real game? This is madness... who should this game appeal to? Oldschool LoK fans? Not really. It always was and always will be a singleplayer experience as far as I'm concerned. People who never played a LoK game before? Yeah right, since this would be such a good introduction into the world of LoK. I highly doubt it. Dead Sun looked very promising, not to mention that there are no vampire games/competitors, so why wouldn't this be the perfect PS4 launch title? People are waiting for a similar, dark vampireish title like The Masquerade – Bloodlines. I think you really missed a huge opportunity. ―Taker34 Game projects can be cancelled for a variety of different reasons and in the end LoK: Dead Sun just wasn’t the right game, at the right time. Development started on Nosgoth while LoK: Dead Sun was already in development and the reasons that led to the cancellation of Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun had nothing to do with Nosgoth. Nosgoth was a separate game from the beginning and is very much a unique game in its own right. It shared art direction with the single player game, but was always set in an entirely different time period and features different mechanics, characters, levels and gameplay. The reasons that led to the cancellation of LoKain: Dead Sun had nothing to do with Nosgoth and this is why we chose to carry on with its development. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 09:37 PM[185] I'm kinda mentally burnt out at this point. ―Bravocado How the heck do you think *I* feel? Just kidding, I live for this shit :-) I wonder if Mama Robotnik saw this coming even after all those researches. ―dragonflys545 I've been in e-mail contact with him ever since the Dead Sun leak and even gave him a heads up about me posting additional assets. He was among the first on the list for the Nosgoth Community Day earlier this month. Also, just in my own defense I DID TRY to warn you guys directly here on GAF about the direction of the game in Mama Robotniks' Dead Sun thread. I'm a huge LoK fan too and I didn't want people building up false hope or speculating along futile lines. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 09:43 PM[186] I take it none of the humans possess wizardry or arcane arts? ―MagiusNecros Not as yet, but we're all very familiar with Glyph magic, Eldritch energy and Rune spells if this is going to be some kind of lore test. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 09:53 PM[187] So the answer is no. ―MagiusNecros Hmmm... let's say the answer is not right now. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 09:55 PM[188] Do Vamps still lose health over time? And what about Day/Night cycles having buff/debuff effects? If you have those. ―MagiusNecros Would you mind if you saved this for the Live Q&A on Monday? I have the answers but it strikes me I've neglected Nosgoth's other social channels due to my time spent here. IN ADDITION: You can find the second community impressions of Nosgoth piece over on the Legacy of Kain wiki right here: Nosgoth: First Looks ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 10:02 PM[189] If I remember to. I shall. ―MagiusNecros If you don't, PM me and I'll tell you on Tuesday. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 10:08 PM[190] We'd love to hear from you" OH REALLY? WHY ALL RIGHT THEN --- oh, comments disabled. lol oops. ―Morrigan Targaryen Yes, but the YouTube discussion wall is open, on which I've been replying, I'm afraid Nosgoth doesn't have like a dozen community personnel, It's JUST me and I physically can't stay on top of everything, as much as I'm trying to. Those typos hurt my soul, I hope you were typing from an iphone or something. Nupratros?? But I saw you spell Nupraptor's name correctly later so okay... ―Morrigan Targaryen Apologies for my sloppy typing, I'll do my best to not let it happen again. This reads like fanfiction. Sorry. ―Morrigan Targaryen I'm sorry you feel that way and with respect, I disagree. Let's break it down. We know why Kain throws Raziel into the pit. We also know Kain is patiently waiting for Raziel's return when he emerges, even going so far as to say he expected Raziel to arrive at the Sanctuary of the Clans sooner. We *also* see that Kain hasn't suffered any of the effects of Nupraptor's curse over time in the same way as the other Lieutenants and their Clans. AND we also know that Kain has kept a somewhat light touch on his Empire during Raziel's time in the Abyss, given Rahab's comments in the Drowned Abby, apparently only making an appearance every so often when he sees fit and demonstrating a knowledge of future events. Additionally, Kain actively demonstrates a disregard for his Lieutenants (as well as their offspring and his whole Empire in general) and would have no reason to share his intricate plans to salvage Nosgoth and reclaim his role as the Scion of Balance with them. Plus, we also know Kain has access to and has been actively using the Chronoplast. Therefore, it seems overwhelmingly likely that Kain had skipped forwards through time, and not long after Raziel had been cast down judging by his not-as-devolved-as-the-Lieutenants appearance. Therefore, Kain physically isn't around during the majority of Raziel's time in the Abyss, meaning his Lieutenants were in joint rulership of Nosgoth. So how do the Razielim die out? Well, we also know that the Lieutenants were jealous and capricious, eager to curry favour with Kain and to gain power for themselves. It's overwhelmingly likely, therefore, that - having misinterpreted Kain's decision to cast Raziel into the Abyss - the Clans would have fallen on the Razielim in an effort to destroy them, believing that's what their Lord and Master wanted and also to claim the now leaderless Razielim's lands as their own. With new (for the first time in centuries) possessions at stake, this in turn would no doubt have led to infighting, perhaps even civil war between the clans. Either way, we already *know* that the Vampires must have been distracted enough somehow during this period (obviously without Kain's iron will to guide them), because at some point in this era, Humans - who, up until this point, had been entirely enslaved - start attacking Vampire strongholds and even incapacitate one of Kain’s lieutenants, Dumah, for several centuries (as evinced by his comparative lack of devolution in comparison to Zephon and Melchiah). This is where the series demonstrates strong internal logic, as for Vampires three or four centuries is not very long at all, but for Humans that's several generations! All we're doing is filling in the gaps at the early part of this period, before Dumah has been staked but after Kain has absconded his throne and hopped into the Chronoplast. We're saying that with the Vampires focused on their internal squabbles, Nosgoth’s Human population seized the chance to grow stronger, rebuild cities, relearn skills and recovered their power to the point where they could retaliate against their Vampire masters. This credible threat would naturally have reunited the warring Vampire Clans in the face of a common enemy. Enter my previous quote about the Razielim here. Had all the Razileim been killed by that point? Well, obviously not, 'cos they're in our game. Do we even know whether the Razileim were actually ever destroyed completely? If you've done your research, you'll know Amy Hennig was purposefully vague on this point... and so are we. (Plus, we do actually have some pretty cool plans to *show* you what happened to them after Raziel got cast down without using cut-scenes. It's actually pretty exciting stuff). So PLEASE don't denigrate our narrative efforts by (a) calling it "fanfiction" and (b) using that word in an undeservedly pejorative sense. I mean, it's true in one sense in that we're fans and it's fiction, but we've gone to as greater lengths as possible to make sure nothing contradicts pre-established canon and actually expands what we know of this era in interesting ways Please explain what these "elements" are. Concretely, what the hell are "right market conditions"? Why would anyone think the market wouldn't want another LoK sequel and instead would want this deathmatch crap? Sorry, but that kind of PR content-free buzzword really irks me. ―Morrigan Targaryen I'm afraid this is a much bigger question than a lowly community guy is able to answer. Sorry, I know I'm a rep of the company, but I'm not THE company and so I'm not party to all our decision making processes. It doesn't matter what in-game rationalizations you can come up with, these areas still look like boring crap. LoK is known and loved for its awesome gothic and dark fantasy architecture. Some wooden shantytown, even if you can explain it away with your fanfiction in-game lore, is still completely uninteresting. Someone said it looks like a rejected map from Tomb Raider, and I agree. ―Morrigan Targaryen Fair enough, and your entitled to your opinion, however let's take a look at Blood Omen. Uschtenheim and Nachtholm weren't exactly on the same scale as Willendorf or Avernus, were they? We will be exploring other locations, both Human and Vampire, of differing size, scale and upkeep. This is a live game, and the quantity of in-game content we go live with for Closed Alpha is *very* different to the quantity of content we'll have for Open Beta. Moreover, we do see an example of a human settlement in Soul Reaver and its architecture is pretty damn cool. So yeah, the excuses won't fly. ―Morrigan Targaryen Not everything is as fully built up as the Human Citadel. And, naturally, we want to hold onto some of the more impressive content for later use. So, please give us a chance, we're still growing. I remember primitive flamethrowers, but not hand cannons. ―Morrigan Targaryen What, you mean these hand cannons? Besides which, they're still lame and generic weapons found in every shooter. Why anyone would play as the humans is beyond me, the only vaguely neat thing about this game is the novelty of playing a vampire with vampire powers. ―Morrigan Targaryen Please take a look at the two impressions pieces I linked out to earlier in this thread. After playing the game, some people think the Vampires are overpowered, others think that the Humans are. It really does depend on your play style. If you're a sniper, for example, you'll obviously prefer the Scout to the Tyrant. I can understand not wanting to moderate so many comments. At the same thing, this is only an issue if you know full well the reaction is going to be overwhelmingly negative (and I'd like you all at Squeenix to wonder why that is, and no, "they're narrow-minded" is not the real reason). Moreover, the like/dislike rating have also been disabled. Because we know that bar would be bright red, yes? So this has nothing to do with a lack of moderating manpower. ―Morrigan Targaryen As I said, (and apologies for repeating myself verbatim here), I didn't want a wall of negativity to be the first thing people who are new to the game saw when they watched the video on our YouTube channel. I'd much rather people be allowed to come to their own conclusions about the game rather than have their opinions coloured in advance. After all, there are loads of places for people to vent about the game or to express their displeasure to us directly on multiple forums and even our own official forum, Facebook page and Twitter feed. It's not good for the game and for me, what's good for the is the highest priority. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 11:42 PM[191] Are the Pillars in it? ―Oceansized None of the maps in which Nosgoth’s gameplay is set at launch feature the Pillars. The Pillars do not play a key role in Nosgoth; they are corrupted and decimated in this time period and the playable factions involved are either unable or unwilling to restore them. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 11:48 PM[192] Right, that's it - this has been fun but it's mega-late so I'm going home now. See you tomorrow! ―Monkeythumbz, 09-25-2013, 11:51 PM[193] Technically it's "tomorrow" now, so… That seems like a funny conclusion to make. Kain's empire is in decay and he was time travelling sometimes, therefore, this? Whatever. ―Morrigan Targaryen I don't feel you're taking all the evidence into account. What about Kain's comparative lack of devolution? Why would he have he allowed Dumah to be staked? Why was his empire in such disarray when Raziel emerged from the Abyss? Why, given the nature of his character, would he even bother sticking around and waiting for Raziel to emerge from the Abyss when he has the Chronoplast at his disposal? All of this points to Kain having skipped forwards through time and the rest is logical progression. Sorry you feel denigrated, but I call it like I see it, and besides, "narrative efforts", lol? I could call it a "narrative effort" if it were a single-player story-driven game where narrative actually matters, but you're making a deathmatch game. Give me a break. ―Morrigan Targaryen I think you underestimate the amount of world-building involved in *any* game set in the LoK universe. I mean, we've written a Bible, not all of which will probably ever be revealed in its entirety (although I did just paraphrase a chunk of it). We do have plans to convey the history of this era to Nosgoth's players, however it isn't in moment-to-moment gameplay. And that's where you lose me. Obviously we differ in what "interesting" means. And I know I'm not alone here. ―Morrigan Targaryen Sure, absolutely, but you're also not of the only opinion going. Nevertheless, I get that you don't like our approach and that's okay. I can't force you to, nor would I want to, and we're hyper aware that Nosgoth won't appeal to every single long-time LoK fan around. Nevertheless, I'm still of the firm opinion that Nosgoth is a valid and credible entry in the series' canon. That seems like a paltry excuse; you have an opportunity to make majestic evil cathedrals and fortresses, but instead you pick crappy wooden shantytowns as levels? I'm aware it won't be the only map, but for a trailer you'd want to showcase your best, so forgive me if I'm completely underwhelmed by the art direction (and that's being kind). Besides, in the older games, even the smaller-scale environments looked cooler than what we saw in the trailer. This is a Blood Omen mod of Nachtholm, and that already looks more inspiring, and of course Uschtenheim was in Soul Reaver 2 and looked pretty damn awesome and totally in line with the LoK artistic feel. ―Morrigan Targaryen Both the examples you give are in the land of Nosgoth's pre-corruption era, whereas our game is set during Kain's decaying Empire, so I don't think they're a fair comparison. Also, please consider you're comparing snatched glimpses of maps from a trailer to environments in which you've had full, 360-degree playthroughs. Moreover, bear in mind the inherent differences in the development approach to live games and traditional boxed/on-disc titles - our trailer is composed of pre-Alpha content and, as I say, the game will be growing and evolving over time. I seriously look forward to showing you what we currently have in production at a later date. Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to be challenged in this way. I'm not saying our game is perfect right at this present juncture but the great thing about a live game is that, with the help of your (constructive) feedback, we'll be able to shape and improve on it over time. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 01:14 AM[194] Oh MonkeyThumbz. If I somehow miss the live Q and A would it bother you if I sent a PM containing a list of questions about this iteration of the series regarding gameplay mechanics? All depends on my work schedule. ―MagiusNecros That would be fine, it'd be my pleasure to answer them. :) ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 01:15 AM[195] Curious, if you've written a bible, then why does the studio have such small aspirations? Why not create that world? The IP could be MASSIVE, and it's being used to a third person multiplayer focused kill-fest... I understand you only have a budget to work under, but man, this is like the chance to make something really special with a really old IP, and it's being turned into yet another run of the mill multiplayer game. I'm not saying the execution is going to be poor, i'm saying the scope is insanely condensed to the point where it just looks like a huge waste of time. ―Whompa From where I'm sitting, I wouldn't call our aspirations small at all. I also wouldn't call Nosgoth's gameplay run-of-the-mill, either. Designing and implementing fair and balanced asymmetrical ranged versus melee team-based combat is no small challenge! As for our scope (and I've a feeling that *this* is going to be my repeated phrase for some time to come), what we revealed today is only a part of a bigger whole that we'll be rolling out over time. Man, I won't comment on gameplay (hope it's fun), but plotwise, those comments make me remind why I am wary of prequels and interquels set in a relatively tight continuity. "Hey, it's plausible that it happened!". You have to play it extremely safe (and be boring) or create some ridiculous storylines that expand the universe by betraying fans' previous expectations. If you choose the second option, the new, more detailed subplots have to be strong enough to replace the old ones while not contradicting the established lore. Sadly, most writers can't achieve that. ―southerncross I get where you're coming from, but if you read up on all the stuff that was left hanging about this particular era (not just in the games, but cut content, interviews etc.), all we're really doing is turning a lot of not-so-subtle hints and clues into explicit beats in the timeline. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 01:31 AM[196] Paging mamarobotnik... ―bigdaddygamebot Take a look at previous pages in the thread, please. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 01:37 AM[197] First when you discuss the poor architecture, setting, and lack of feel of a this LoK game and say "Well there are other places is Nosgoth we never saw." is just proof that you and/or the team don't get it. You're right that in a realistic world that is totally the case, that there are varying esthetics to a world. BUT this is not the real world, this is a Lok game and it's "ART" design and level design is created with a strong Gothic styling, uncompromisingly so. As the Art director you COULD feature wooden shacks in the woods, it's very possible and logical they would exist but you DON'T because that's not the Artistic direction of the franchise, and you make concession for that direction ―Deckard Cain The LoK series has always incorporated more art styles than just Gothic. If you take a look at this post by Daniel Cabuco, who I'm sure needs no introduction, you'll note that the Vampiric structures followed a more Byzantine/Ottoman motif, whereas Human ones were more influenced by European designs, with the original team mixing and matching "mercilessly" between them. Am I saying that what you've seen so far rigidly follows those concepts? No, all I'm saying is that there's greater scope for artistic freedom within the LoK universe than you're postulating. Do I as a LoK fan want to know about the battles between humans and vampires during Ravel's time in the Abyss and Kain''s now reticonned absence? ―Deckard Cain Firstly, this really is not a retcon as we're absolutely not changing any part of the continuity retroactively. It has always been both strongly inferred by the original LoK games' development team and speculated by the LoK community that Kain simply jumped ahead through time to meet Raziel and all we're doing is confirming that to be the case. Secondly, I appreciate that you find this premise uninteresting, really I do - it would be myopic of me to suppose that every LoK fan out there is interested in this era - however yours isn't the only opinion going. Rather than link you to any number of supportive posts on Nosgoth's official forum or even the Eidos Legacy of Kain forums, take a look at this one again from Daniel Cabuco's website. There is literally no appeal to me in this game. I don't want a social experience with my LoK game, I don't want a multiplayer game, so I'm not ever going to play it. I'm not going to "give it a shot" because its LoK. That would be stupid of me, the game itself does not look like anything I would play. "But it's free to play" Dude, Candy Crush is free to play and I don't play that, why? Cause it's not something that interests me from a gameplay perspective. ―Deckard Cain That's cool, I don't think anyone's ever designed a game that appeals to absolutely everybody (apart from maybe Mario and Sonic). Even so, i I think it would be great if people were allowed the space to come to form their own opinions about the game rather than be encouraged to have a negative opinion about it without ever having seen or played it. I mean, I don't play Candy Crush either, but I wouldn't hate on people for doing so or the people who made that game (*not* saying that's what you're doing even for a moment, merely expanding the point). Just take a look at the impressions from the hardcore LoK fans who *have* seen and played it I linked to earlier in this thread. So, while this game isn't for you, please appreciate that doesn't necessarily mean it's not for everybody full stop. You can not alienate the core the fan base of a game and switch genres and expect things to go well. ―Deckard Cain There is precedent for genre-switching within the LoK series though, and similar comments were leveled at Soul Reaver by Blood Omen fans. The only thing I ask and everyone else here asks is that you got to SE and you tell them. "Listen I went on NeoGaf, there were so many LoK fans there, the series fanbase is very much alive but they want a true sequel and continuation of the franchise." ―Deckard Cain Oh don't you worry about that, I beat that drum pretty much every day of the week. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 11:47 AM[198] Sorry, meant to reply to this yesterday but had it open in the wrong window. Bad analogy because there are tons of Star Wars games and a few at that time released. Also, Star Wars games are licensed games that easily get away with cross genre (FPS, TPS, strategy, RPG, MMO, etc.) Legacy of Kain is not Star Wars. It was much more similar to Zelda than anything else. ―Darkmakaimura I don't think that's how we've ever viewed the IP internally, we've always thought that the LoK IP comprised a universe rich and deep enough for multiple complimentary interpretations. Again, check out this quote from Amy Hennig from the September 2000 issue of Official Playstation Magazine. "The plan is that in the future we can continue to explore different aspects of Nosgoth's history, with different characters. This is such a rich universe with so much mythology and backstory, and so many interesting players. The analogy we use internally is that we want to establish something like they did with Star Trek or Star Wars - where you have a consistent universe and 'mythology' which can be explored from many different perspectives." ―Re: GLoK Interviews with Amy Hennig Now, I'm not saying that her team at Crystal Dynamics had an asymmetrical multiplayer game in mind, all I'm saying is that the the LoK universe has been built to be strong enough and broad enough to support this experience. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 12:14 PM[199] Monkey, any idea on when Closed Beta invites are going out? I would love to give this game a try, I really enjoyed Unreal Championship 2 ―Grief.exe Sure, you can sign up form the Closed Beta right now on our website (www.Nosgoth.com). Please don't DDoS us! Not sure when the invites will be issued, but I'd expect it'll be before Xmas. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 07:19 PM[200] People would be screaming bloody murder just as they're doing here. So, I hope you can see why fans all around like myself are pretty miffed about the direction SE decided to take. ―Darkmakaimura Absolutely I can, of course - to date, LoK has been known for its sophisticated narrative and accomplished characterisation. I just hope that, once people get their hands on the game, people appreciate we're trying to add to and even expand people's expectations of the IP, not detract from it. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 08:16 PM[201] so onto a question, realistically and please be as honest as you can to manage our shattered expectations, IF Nosgoth proves successful* what are our chances of a single player continuation of the series? and not just another multiplayer? ―Agent Gibbs Firstly, I'm not actually sure that Nosgoth's success is directly tied to the chance of another SP entry in the series. We love the IP and know that it resonates well, so even if Nosgoth was a total flop there's still a chance we'd want to create a single-player LoK experience sometime down the line. That said, Nosgoth being successful would only help, as hopefully it would expose the IP to new people and make them interested in future titles. Either way, I am *just* a CM. So I could be talking out of my arse here. Please bear that in mind. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 10:25 PM[202] Probably a dumb question, but are the actual developers watching this thread? I would hope so in regards to getting a feel for the reactions in regards to this direction. ―Darkmakaimura Yes, of course! Not just the devs either, but people on the publishing side, too. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-26-2013, 11:13 PM[203] Monkeythumbz, if you're still reading this is there any chance of seeing this on consoles? I know Sony has said that they're really welcoming of F2P games. While I'm not happy this is the route LoK is taking, I'd still like to try the game out and it would be nice to see it on PS4. It would also get it more exposure. We're currently focusing our development efforts for Nosgoth on Steam for Windows PC. There are no official plans for other platforms at this present time. Oh yeah this is PC only right? Is there even gonna be controller support? ―Morrigan Targaryen We won't have controller support implemented in Closed Alpha, but it will follow at a later date, before we hit Open Beta. ―Monkeythumbz, 09-30-2013, 11:46 AM[204] Hi everyone, we'll be going live with today's Q&A over on our Twitch.tv channel at slightly revised timings - apologies for the minor delay. The livestream will now be broadcast at the following times: Monday 30th September • PDT: 11am • EDT: 2pm • BST: 7pm • CEST: 8pm Looking forward to speaking with you all very soon! ―Monkeythumbz, 09-30-2013, 03:46 PM[205] A lot of the very big issues I have with this announcement have been previously voiced in the thread, but I wanted to bring up another issue that I am hoping you (George/Monkeythumbz) will try to pass on to your bosses and their bosses: for fans like myself, seeing this kind of thing happen doesn't just damage the franchise in my eyes, but also irreparably diminishes my opinion of the entire company as a brand. I don't know if it's a case of managers and shareholders chasing fads, or crazy executives soliciting for business initiatives from fortune tellers, but I do know Square-Enix is one company among a few that have been making these unpalatable, brand-damaging decisions for years, and seeing that those in charge are still so out of sync with many of their preexisting customers is...well, let's just say my consumer dollars do not and will not go to Square-Enix anymore. I appreciate your candor, though, and sincerely hope you are being paid very well for this job you've been assigned. ―Mister Saturn This is definitely a point of view of which we're aware, for sure. Still, we're of the opinion that Nosgoth is a game that's (a) very fun thus worth playing and supporting, and (b) capable of expanding the audience-base for the LoK IP. As for my salary, I'll pass that on to my boss!! ;) ―Monkeythumbz, 09-30-2013, 11:28 PM[206] Sorry to necro this thread, but just thought at least a few of you might like to see the results of our live Q&A session with the online community, which you can view on YouTube here: Nosgoth - Live Community Q&A, September 30th 2013 ―Monkeythumbz, 10-02-2013, 09:42 PM[207] Alright George, you got me. Initially I felt very defensive about the IP but I'm a fan, I couldn't help it but now, I want to try this out. Since it is a PvP game in which you will have SOME story elements explained, is there a possibility (not sure if it was asked before or if its already in the planning) to have set piece battles? Battles where you are randomly tossed into a faction and play out events of lore. Similar to a dungeon setting in an MMO but with two playable sides to it, a "what if" battle where you have the vampires attack a major human stronghold, or vice versa, and you can see what happens if one faction beats the other? I've already signed up for Beta so I'm looking forward to give this game a whirl. ―Vorundor That isn't a mode that's currently in the game, but like I said in the vid Nosgoth is a live project so theoretically anything (within the confines of asymmetrical PvP online multiplayer) is possible if it's (a) feasible and (b) popular enough. Anyways, would be nice to hear you're actually working on a single player LoK/Nosgoth game as we speak. That team seems pretty capable of pulling it off. ―Darkmakaimura We have no single-player LoK games currently in development. ―Monkeythumbz, 10-03-2013, 11:37 AM[208] Has anyone heard anything about alpha\beta keys going out? ―Alec2DaBreen Hey, yes there's lots of info about that on the game's Facebook page, Twitter feed, official forum etc. I'd provide links, but it'd be bad netiquette given I'm a rep (sorry!). ―Monkeythumbz, 11-28-2013, 12:03 PM[209] #### My visit to Square Enix London (Legacy of Kain related)Edit The invited Legacy of Kain fans – a group of approximately fifteen people... ―Mama Robotnik It was supposed to be 20 (I really wanted Aevum to attend), but in the end the group only numbered 15 due to schedule conflicts, some cancellations and a few people declined as well, presumably because they didn't find our project appealing (which I totally understand). Massive thanks needs to be extended to our long-serving forum mods Driber, Umah_Bloodomen and The_Hylden; without their invaluable assistance I wouldn't have been able to put the whole shebang together. The act of giving out all expense paid trips and goodie bags is more blatant (and effective) coercion than anything else they could do TBH. Not that I'm saying it colored your impressions, but that was their intention with this, just to point out the obvious. ―Reallink Please bear in mind that we invited the potentially most critical group of people possible to come check out and play Nosgoth first, before any press have even seen it. I can tell you that both Bill Beacham and I were nervous as all hell the morning of the presentation and that we were preparing ourselves for open hostility, having tracked the reactions to our pre-announcement statements online. I'm pleased to say that the group we invited turned out to be more friendly than we anticipated, and I hope that's more down to the quality of the gameplay and our own passion for all things LoK rather than the fact we paid for travel, accommodation and refreshments. It's probably mostly down to them all being such lovely, lovely people though. I and the rest of my team-mates had a wonderful time that day and, as a enormous LoK fan, it was an unprecedented thrill being able to mull over the minutiae of esoteric tidbits of lore both at the event and at the impromptu session down the pub that followed. It was a shame Mama Robotnik couldn't join us for that! It was important to me personally, as a gamer, a human being and long-time forum goer (Marathon.org FTW), that we serviced the perennial active members of the Legacy of Kain boards on the Eidos forum first and foremost. Did we hope that they'd like the game? Of course, I mean that's only natural and to be expected. However we needed to ensure that we were actually as in-keeping with LoK lore as we thought we were, and this was the best way of doing so. Additionally, we wanted to know how some of the most hardcore LoK fans in the world would fare with the game once they actually got their hands on it. The feedback provided by the survey forms Mama Robotnik mentioned have proved incredibly useful and is informing our thoughts and decisions on a daily basis. We're still some way off from sharing new art, but we'll get there and when we do, we're hoping it'll demonstrate that we really are listening and taking community requests on-board in as practical a way as possible for this project. This can't really be a Mama Robotnik thread if I can scroll through it in less than 30 seconds. ―ratcliffja ^This. ―Monkeythumbz, 10-22-2013, 07:02 PM[210] #### Nosgoth - Hunters Class Background RevealedEdit Our first look into one of the classes backgrounds, perhaps? ―Darkmakaimura Not the first! We've been gradually revealing the backstory behind the game, as well as how it ties into and explores previously established canon, over on our blog and we're about halfway through now. You can find the posts in chronological order below: We still have the Razielim Sentinels and Red Sisters' Alchemists to go, before we delve into the three maps playable in the game - Freeport, Provance and Valeholm. ―Monkeythumbz, 11-07-2013, 11:06 AM[211] Actually I think that came out a few months ago it was a kickstarted called Shadowrun Returns ―Anticitizen One Proud backer right here! I <3 me some ShadowRun. ―Monkeythumbz, 11-08-2013, 03:20 PM[212] #### Nosgoth Gameplay PremiereEdit Good points. But so far, no assurances as to the fact that this is merely an attempt to reinvigorate the IP before the legend of Kain truly continues ―The Smoking Bun I've said this before elsewhere, so I apologise if it looks like I'm repeating myself, but... The decision to make any game is based on a number of factors – the right idea, the right team, the right market conditions all need to be in place to make it happen. The Legacy of Kain franchise is one we are huge fans of and we would love to bring another narrative experience in that world if all the elements were in place. That said, the right combination of circumstances aren’t in place right now. We’re very aware that if and when we make a single player game it needs to be a worthy successor, and we will wait until we’re confident that this is going to be possible. Previous games in the franchise have very much focused on the Vampires and other inhuman races of Nosgoth. We wanted to show more of the Human side – at various points in history they’ve fought fiercely enough to nearly wipe out the Vampires after all, so it’s not like they’re not a formidable fighting force. Equally we thought it would be interesting to experience Nosgoth not from the vantage point of the world’s rulers but from the perspective of the people who fought in these wars. Multiplayer gameplay seemed like a good fit that would let new players into this universe. We feel that the Legacy of Kain universe is rich and deep enough to support all kinds of gameplay experience, and we want to introduce it to a wider audience than just fans of single player games. We know that while there are lots of fans of single-player gaming, an increasing number of gamers are looking for a more connected and social experience. We were interested in exploring whether the world of Legacy of Kain could offer something to these gamers, and the more we thought about it the stronger the idea sounded. It was obvious gameplay needed to be asymmetrical, that our two sides needed to feel very different – this wasn’t just about the lore, but about making sure the gameplay felt new and exciting. We always felt that Nosgoth itself was the third central character to the franchise so far, alongside Kain and Raziel. It’s an amazing and hugely atmospheric world, with so much possibility for all kinds of games and stories. We wanted to emphasize this – we believe the world of Nosgoth has room for many more characters and situations than we’ve seen so far. This game looks pretty fun. Reminds me of Unreal Championship 2 in ways. ―∀ Narayan Heh, me too! Loved that game :-) I'm not sure I even want to see what disaster of a game they could conceive of for the main plot. This is a much safer route. ―∀ Narayan You can find out about Nosgoth's backstory and how it ties into the canon of the main LoK series over on our blog, I've compiled a handy round-up of all our story pieces so far in this post on our forum here: The Lore of Nosgoth That's just because MOBA is a terribly undescriptive name for a genre. Those words have definitions that would fit this game, but if you played a game which was a top down dual stick shooter where your goal was only to shoot the first character you see, that doesn't mean the game is an FPS. ―Archaix ^This. It would be inaccurate to describe Nosgoth as a MOBA - the gameplay is entirely different to DoTA or LoL. A FTPay game with no direction and no love, no soul, only cynism... ―Ahasverus Oh man, you have no idea how much it hurts reading that. Anyway, Nosgoth is a free-to-play game - but it's *not* pay-to-win. We made the decision to go to free-to-play to break down barriers and let as many players into the game as possible. One of the key goals has been to create a fair experience that doesn't penalise players who don’t spend money in the game, as such Nosgoth doesn’t include items, weapons or abilities that are inherently better (aka supremacy goods). I like the graphics, the map looks fun too. Any word on modes? I think im good if its standard, but some kind of moba hybrid or something new and im interested. ―Elixist Yes, we revealed a new mode recently called siege, you can find out more about it on our blog here: Siege – New Mode Reveal ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 10:56 AM[213] I don't see a single scenario in which this title will be profitable or successful. ―Yaoibot You can rely on us to do our best to confound your expectations. :-) ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 11:42 AM[214] What are those elements? ―The Smoking Bun Numerical and quality ones. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid it's really not my place to go into further details. I'm just a lowly CM, not a business development director! For the bolded, c'mon we both know that's PR speak. Nobody goes, "Oh gee! This game sure is fun, if there was only a way to have Facebook constantly update what I'm doing in the game." Unless you were referring to multiplayer gameplay and chat in general. ―The Smoking Bun I'm referring to multiplayer gameplay and chat, plus also stuff like clan/guild-building, competing/comparing builds, the rise in popularity of pro-gaming as a spectator eSport, video streaming and various other ways of sharing. I didn't mean Facebook/Twitter integration - sorry, I suppose I could have been clearer. I am shocked that you seem to claim that single-player games are some sort of niche! ―The Smoking Bun I didn't actually say that. I said that we want to intrduce LoK to a wider audience than just fans of single player games. That way we can expand the maximum potential player-base for the LoK IP. And why the obsession for the human aspect of it? Who cares! This is a fantasy of world of spirits and vampires and you think the humans are the most interesting? Tell us the real reason. ―The Smoking Bun Sorry, but that *is* the real reason, in a Star Wars: Battlefront kinda way. You describe the world so wonderfully yet you ultimately decided to box us in into a bunch of similar looking arena's... ―The Smoking Bun We're going to be exploring many different areas in the land of Nosgoth through our maps, the first ones you've seen are just the beginning. I'll still buy this because you guys look like you need the money. Consider it charity to fund the real Legacy of Kain game you want to make someday ―The Smoking Bun Thanks, and we really do appreciate the support, but please be aware you can play Nosgoth for free, so you wouldn't actually need to spend any money if you didn't want to. Ever. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 12:08 PM[215] IMHO, it's probably a bit premature to say whether or not something "sucks" until you've had a chance to play it for yourself. After all, similar accusations were levelled at Soul Reaver by original Blood Omen fans. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 12:14 PM[216] Not my kind of game, so yes, to me it sucks, I'm actually pretty angry that this has been allowed to happen to one of my beloved franchises. It's like a cheap cash in, using the Legacy Of Kain name to promote this, it's not just a bad idea, it's actually insane! Square Enix are slowly but surely destroying every IP I ever loved. ―Mackins The LoK IP remains intact - Nosgoth is not a direct sequel, it's more of a spin-off. That's why we don't have "Legacy of Kain" in the game's title, out of respect as much as anything else. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 12:30 PM[217] Can you honestly tell me, that this game, is the game you thought fans wanted? Who exactly asked for this? ―Mackins We're doing our best to create new fans of the IP, not just appeal to existing ones. A lot of the in-game content we have in the works for our multiplayer game leverages the LoK IP in very recognisable, respectful and (we hope!) interesting ways - I'm very much looking forward to seeing people's reactions when we come to share what we're currently working on. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 12:33 PM[218] You bring in more fans by making a great game that people want to play. ―Mackins We honestly believe we're making just that kind of game. So far, feedback from our Closed Alpha testers and from previews in specialist gaming media has all been pretty positive. A game true to it's roots but a modern take on it, an open world RPG set in the LoK universe would be ideal. ―Mackins That would make for a very cool single-player LoK game, true - I don't disagree. Pay To Win, publishers and devs thinking everyone wants dudebro gaming... ―Mackins As stated here, Nosgoth is not pay-to-win. Also, I don't think our gameplay appeals to so-called "dudebro" gamers, it's not a twitchy free-for-all frag-fest, after all. The fact you need to operate as a team just to survive, employ field-tested tactics on a moment-to-moment basis and the asymmetrical nature of the combat dynamic all adds a lot of depth, IMHO. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 01:00 PM[219] @Monkeythumbz I really have to ask, because it seems almost obvious in it's simplicity, but why did you not try to blend the traditional narrative of the LoK games into the new game? ―BibiMaghoo Just because it's not in the game right now, doesn't mean we can't add it later (in a multiplayer context) if there's enough demonstrable demand. That is one of the benefits of developing a live game... plus, we are only in Closed Alpha right now, after all. By this I mean simple things, perhaps some narration by Templeman or Bell, perhaps some 'story based' RVR with a tied in narrative? Why was it decreed that this would all be excluded or abandoned, when including small nibbles of LoK legacy stuff would have made the game far more interesting for fans of the franchise. Hell, I would have paid £40 for a new game that had this, never mind free to play. I bought the LoK stuff for TGoL, even though it was recycled voice overs, with two isometric character models, that didn't even have the weapons changed. ―BibiMaghoo Heh, that's why I got LC&TGoL too - great game IMHO, especially with a buddy. We're open to having more v/o, but it would need to make sense both the the context of the game and the series' lore. Right now, I'm not sure if reducing Kain to an arena announcer would be a good use of the character, but our thinking isn't locked and we're always looking to incorporate fan feedback, so if we could do so in a meaningful way then that may change. There is still time to do this, or work something into the game beyond world lore, to make it a bit more personal to the essence of the franchise, that it is Kain's tale that IS Nosgoth, that is the LoK franchise, and that makes the games anything at all. ―BibiMaghoo You can find a link to a post on our official forum rounding up all our story blogs detailing how Nosgoth fits into pre-established series canon here: The Lore of Nosgoth . One of the repeated bits of feedback we've received from our Closed Alpha players is to incorporate these into the game somehow, maybe as unlockables in some format as you progress through the game and level up. How we'd go about implementing this remains to be seen, right now we're focused on making the game as stable as possible, improving our matchmaking system and ensuring our core gameplay mechanics are as fair and balanced as we can make them. As I said, we're still only in Closed Alpha, so we've a long road ahead of us and there's lots of stuff we'd like to explore, so long as there's sufficient demand. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 03:53 PM[220] Well, technically the vampires won that war by a wide margin. They could shield themselves and say it was a deliberate decision to fit into the cannon. ―Ahasverus Did they, though? There aren't that many Vampires left by the time Raziel emerges from the abyss and Dumah has been incapacitated, plus the Empire is pretty much ruined while the Human Citadel is intact and protected by guards with flamethrowers. Bear in mind that Nosgoth is set in the almost millennium long period during which Raziel is falling down the Abyss, following his apparent execution by Kain at the hands of the Lieutenants and his resurrection as a wraith. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 04:32 PM[221] You don't remember people running around with what looks like shotguns in Nosgoth? ―Xater Actually, both handcannons and flamethrowers were weapons used by humans to hunt vampires in the original Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver game: 1. http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Hand_cannons 2. http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Flamethrowers﻿ ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:05 PM[222] So am I right in thinking, the vast majority think this idea is crazy? ―Mackins NeoGAF != the world. After all, DOTA2 and LoL are currently enormously popular yet are widely denigrated on GAF (at least, historically). ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:06 PM[223] TI fully respect that you want to get the game playable and fun as a priority, I just feel that this meshing of franchise staple and new game could have been - should have been even - decided and implemented early in development, when using the world of Nosgoth for the game. I will watch on with anticipation then, for how and when you go about altering this situation, and I would say again that the market must be there, or it makes no sense using the franchise for this game. ―BibiMaghoo Please understand that we are still early on in our development, we're just revealing what we're working on as it gets put into the game, rather than when the game is content complete. Anyway, thanks for you words of encouragement - they're sincerely appreciated and we'll work hard to live up to the grand traditions of the LoK series established in previous games. :-) ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:10 PM[224] I played all those games and those are not enemies I really remember. Pretty sure they were not part of Defiance. And still ranged combat is not really something I think of when I think LoK. ―Xater Defiance was set in the past, around the same time(ish) chronologically speaking as LoK:BO1. Nosgoth is set much further in the future, in the same kind of era as LoK:SR1, over 1500 years later. Also, certain human enemies have always been able to attack vampires at range throughout the series. I'm a *huge* LoK lore geek and we've made a significant effort ensuring Nosgoth ties in seamlessly to the established series' canon. By all means hate on the game for it not being what you want in terms of gameplay, but our lore is pretty much watertight. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:19 PM[225] That doesn't mean they would be analogous to automatic rifles. ―Morrigan Targaryen There are no automatic rifles in Nosgoth, though. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:22 PM[226] How expensive was the development? ―The Smoking Bun I'm afraid I can't share that information. Why don't you start a petition or a dummy Kickstarter project? Demonstrating demand is the most sure-fire way of getting us to make what you want us to. Nosgoth should have been a throwaway multiplayer mode everyone starts once and never again like Tomb Raider 2013´s and included with Dead Sun as a PS4 launch title. ―Orniletter PLEASE believe me when I say that the game really is lots and lots of fun! That's gotta count for something, right? ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:27 PM[227] double-post, sorry. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:29 PM[228] Not literally, but those silly crossbows were pretty much the same thing. ―Morrigan Targaryen Well that's just, like, your opinion, man. I would gladly pay for that, you would have to pay me to play this iteration though. ―Mackins I'm sorry to say this, so please don't take this the wrong way, but just because you (specifically) are not in our target audience, doesn't mean we don't have a viable one. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:32 PM[229] So fans of the series aren't your target audience? You want to bring new players in but alienate the fans of the series in doing so? Seriously? ―Mackins I'm sorry to say this, but there is no way to not take this "the wrong way", since the only way LoK fans can read this is "screw you, you're not who we care about". Or "we just want that PvP monies and we don't care if we alienate you, the LoK fan, in the process". ―Morrigan Targaryen So screw the fans right since i am not your target audience but using LoK IP for this? I am pretty disappointing reading this and such a nerve not having the balls to make a new great singleplayer game smh. ―Nokterian No, we want fans of the original games too - both most of the people in our Closed Alpha who say they enjoy the game and most of the regulars on our official forum are long time fans of the series. I appreciate that it's hard to see cross-over between fans of the SP games and fans of MP games, but some people do like both. Heck, when I was playing SR2 and Defiance I was also loving the stuffing out of Unreal Championship 2 at the time. Anyway, we're adding more content to the game that makes it more recognisable to LoK aficionados, it's just that in-game content isn't developed overnight. (I really wish I could share it with you now as it would help my case enormously, but I can't. Sorry!) ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:43 PM[230] lol? So what? I was also enjoying Crash Bandicoot at the same time I was playing Blood Omen, doesn't mean I want a crossover. e_e ―Morrigan Targaryen We're trying to do something new and different, plus we honestly feel the approach fits in well with LoK as an IP, even if it's not what the series long-time followers were expecting or crying out for. I have every confidence we'll reach a level of success because our moment-to-moment gameplay is rock solid and tons of fun, but I suppose only time will tell and only a fool makes cast-iron predictions without access to a Chronoplast. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 05:50 PM[231] Say this game is a success, what are the chances of a genuine RPG down the line? ―The Smoking Bun I'm afraid I'm really not in a position to answer that with any degree of accuracy... but a bloody good one, hopefully! I mean, the Soul Reaver series is what attracted me to working at Eidos/Square Enix Europe in the first place and I know I'm by no means the only one. There are a lot of fans of the series here, and I do mean beyond people just on the Nosgoth team. This is going to be the same thing that happened with DmC, but a billion times worse. Like if DmC had been a F2P RTS game. ―MazeHaze Nosgoth isn't a reboot or a sequel and isn't trying to be; it's not trying to replace what's come before but merely expand upon it. It's more of a spin-off - if it's not your thing, feel free to ignore it. After all, there genuinely are lots of people who have a good time with the game already. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:02 PM[232] So Nosgoth was supposed to be the MP of Dead Sun and then Dead Sun got cancelled but the MP lived? Is that right? ―Mackins I can categorically confirm that Nosgoth was a separate game from the beginning and is very much a unique game in its own right. It was related to the single-player game in terms of a shared art direction, but was always set in an entirely different time period and features different mechanics, characters, levels and gameplay. It isn’t and never was just a multiplayer version of the single-player game. Had Dead Sun shipped then Nosgoth would have been its multiplayer companion game. However, to categorize it as the "the multiplayer component of Dead Sun pulled out and fleshed out" isn't really accurate, nor does it do the game justice IMHO. Well, I just got sent a key so we'll see how it is. ―Acidote Have fun! You can find our server schedule here: http://www.nosgoth.com/servers Perhaps I'm misreading this, but Dead Sun most certainly was not a reboot. It was part of the series. ―Darkmakaimura Dead Sun was an in-continuity reboot, a bit like the new J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:15 PM[233] Not at all. It means it's not what we want from a Legacy of Kain game. ―Morrigan Targaryen And you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, however please bear in mind that it might not be an opinion that's shared 100% universally by all LoK fans ever. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:19 PM[234] So it was always going to be f2p just reusing assets from the SP game. Not that there is anything wrong with that. M&M X is one of my favorite games so far this year and it reuses tons of stuff from HoMM 6 ―Lactose_Intolerant To be honest, it all feels so long ago and apart from certain bits in the first three maps, pretty much everything you see in-game now has been generated as its own original, distinct project. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:21 PM[235] Dead Sun did not discard continuity or recreate characters, the timeline, backstory, etc. It was just a sequel that took place in the distant future and still involved established characters from the franchise. ―Darkmakaimura Yes and no. Its narrative rewrote a lot of the pre-established continuity, just as the J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies did. Also, it didn't really utilise established series characters (apart from in the broadest possible terns), not sure where you got that from. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:23 PM[236] Based on this thread, I'd say it's a damn significant majority. Or do you want me to gather all the negative posts from alienated fans for you? ―Morrigan Targaryen NeoGAF != all gamers everywhere. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:25 PM[237] Edit: Unless Dead Sun retconned now established events which I'm not aware of. ―Darkmakaimura Bingo! Edit 2: The Wiki even mentions the game is not a reboot. http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Legacy_of_Kain:_Dead_Sun ―Darkmakaimura I didn't say it was a reboot, I said it was an in-continuity reboot, just like J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies. Really man? I understand it's your job and all, but this is likely the most disingenuous comparison I could even draw if I tried. This free to play IP cash in, compared to what is the best game in the series and the one that gave it it's definitive identity? Or are you implying that this would be a new Soul Reaver, in that all future games would follow this template, representing an unmitigated disaster for the series worse than death? ―Snapshot King No, what I'm saying is that, prior to the release of Soul Reaver and off the back of previews for that game, a lot of Blood Omen fans wrote a lot of angry letters to magazines saying how they thought the new game was some kind of an abomination and a travesty and that it shouldn't be allowed to be made given how different it was from LoK:BO1's isometric hack-&-slash Action-RPG formula. I remember reading them and it almost put me off Soul Reaver even though I'd never played LoK:BO1 (...and still haven't, truth be told - played *all* the others, though!). In fact, it did delay my purchase until I could get LoK:SR1 on the cheap (sorry, Crystal Dynamics - I was young and foolish!). The only comparison I'm making is that people were angry - I'm not commenting about whether or not it was justified. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:37 PM[238] Why did you just cancel Dead Sun, we would be more accepting about this one if it was released alongside Dead Sun, why, why do you left us in the dark while chasing an audience that might or might not be there. Why :( ―Ahasverus Game projects can be cancelled for a variety of different reasons and I know it’s very hard to tell from images and info alone, but in the end Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun just wasn’t the right game, at the right time… but you’ll have to take me at my word on that, I’m afraid. I know it’s disappointing to hear about these things out of context. Fuckin' wow. XD ―Morrigan Targaryen I have read the entire script and watched the entire game in LetsPlay format, though. I'm fully aware of its events, otherwise I wouldn't be able to leverage the [redacted] or [redacted] for the [redacted] we're building. :-P So it did retcon events? Okay, assuming that's the case may I get an example or two? ―Darkmakaimura Yes it did and no you can't. Sorry, I've probably said too much about it already... suppose I'll find out from my boss next week! Yeah, but Soul Reaver was at the very least a game made by competent people... ―Snapshot King Ouch. Yknow what I think? I think your higher ups decided they wanted to cash in on this free to play arena shooter/moba market, and scrounged the back catalogs for IPs and that's the one that worked, and all this talk about being good to the series is after the fact because of course that's what you folks would say. ―Snapshot King You may think that and while I know there's nothing I can do or say to convince you otherwise (while being contractually bound), events really didn't occur like that. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:53 PM[239] So does the xp stay with you from map to map or do you start over after every map? ―Lactose_Intolerant It carries with you from map to map. You build up a stable of characters for both factions, each with their own XP. Also, are there going to be xp boosts/weapon upgrades/perks you can buy with real money or is it all cosmetics? ―Lactose_Intolerant Yes, but only as sidegrades. The game is designed to function from the stating load-out - if, however, you find you prefer playing as more of a lone-wolf sniper or damage-soaking tank, then you can customise your build to make those options available to you either by grinding or microtransactions. The in-game store is something we're looking forward to getting player feedback about in Closed Beta, but we're committed to being 10% free of pay-to-win mechanics. We're building a skill-based game. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 06:58 PM[240] That said, leveling up is not an upgrade path. ―ickingfudiot ...at the moment. We are still in Alpha, after all. Hey, I wan't to apologize, my statement was not meant in two parts, it was meant as a whole. My point was that Soul Reaver was by a different team, but it was Crystal D, so the worries of quality didn't ring true. I'm certain everyone on your team is competent, but who are they, even? They're certainly not Crystal D. ―Snapshot King Hey, no worries, no offence taken, not even slightly.:-) The game is being developed by Psyonix out in San Diego, and they're a great bunch of people - you can find out more about them on our blog here. #truthfact ―Morrigan Targaryen Oh, you! ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 07:02 PM[241] Add Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts to the list. A good game that wouldn´t have received the hatred if Rare had released a "real" mainline game alongside it. ―Orniletter Funnily enough, I was the Community Manager on that game too... feels like a lifetime ago now, though! #vinegarstrokesFTW ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 07:04 PM[242] Wait, you'll find out from your boss if it did retcon events? ―Darkmakaimura No, I'll find out from my boss if I revealed too much! So was this even known at all by someone, say, big fans of the series like Mama Robotnik? ―Darkmakaimura No, MR doesn't know the game's story in full. Even if it did retcon certain things, it's arguable. Again, reboot is defined as restarting a story or franchise. Hence, a reboot would be a new "Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain" for example. Even retcons don't usually imply a reboot. More often than not, it means whatever's been retconned (and I doubt Dead Sun retconned all or even most of the LoK games) is no longer considered part of that continuity. But I've already more than provided multiple clear examples of why Dead Sun is not a reboot so with that, I think I'm done talking (derailing perhaps) about this. ―Darkmakaimura Maybe in-continuity retcon is a more appropriate definition... like I said, whatever J.J. Abrams' new Star Trek movies are, it was similar in definition to those. So were this to be a gigantic commercial failure, whats the likelyhood of whoever's idea it was losing their job, or at least not being allowed to make these decisions in the future? How does an F2P game like this become a failure exactly, not managing to recoup costs? ―Snapshot King I have no idea I'm afraid, I'm not a Producer. Just wait until the gameplay reveal of the Soul Reaver power up. ―Snapshot King N-n-n-n-n-n-never gonna happen. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 07:11 PM[243] Who is your boss Monkey? Does he visit Gaf? ―Mackins My line manager (i.e. "boss") is SlyRebirth, but he's not on the Nosgoth team. And yes, *everyone* on the team - be they at Square Enix or at Psyonix - reads GAF. I'm assuming they're reading this thread right now. Hmmm ...better watch what I say... ...BUY OUR STUFF!!! ;-) ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 07:16 PM[244] Hahaha they should give you a pay rise... ―Mackins Mum, is that you? ;-) ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 07:22 PM[245] nice try Monkeythumbz ―Lactose_Intolerant If you think that's me on a dummy account, it really isn't. Please ask the mod to verify my IP address, I don't operate like that either online or IRL. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 08:06 PM[246] i was joking ―Lactose_Intolerant Ah sorry, it's hard to tell - somebody needs to invent a sarcasm ASCII smiley. EDIT: I've *got* it! Behold, the sarcasm smiley: ;-| ―Monkeythumbz, 02-07-2014, 08:15 PM[247] With all due respect, I don't believe you. I was a huge fan of Blood Omen and when Soul Reaver was announced, I remember nothing but excitement and interest from the community at large. ―EvaUnit02 Amy Hennig herself makes mention of it in this old interview: IGNPS2: So you're originally with Crystal [Dynamics], then? Amy: Yeah, I joined in July of 1995 and worked on and off with SK and the rest of the Crystal staff that was working on Blood Omen for I guess a year plus on the game. For anybody that's worried about... I mean, there's a lot of fans that are worried about, kind of, the changing of the guard, I understand that, and I just want them to understand that obviously I'm a fan of the first game, I worked on the first game, I'm committed to it, I'm committed to honoring the franchise, and I don't want them to think we're a bunch of sellouts or something. IGNPS2: The conspiracy theorists will always think you are. Amy: Yeah, I know. We can't actually be good-intentioned creative people, we have to be a bunch of scheming sellouts. Oh, well. I guess that's more interesting... ―Monkeythumbz, 02-10-2014, 08:50 PM[248] But all that mostly went away when the gameplay footage was shown because everything looked solid. ―Morrigan Targaryen You don't think Nosgoth's gameplay looks solid for a competitive, team-based asymmetrical free-to-play multiplayer game? Or you don't think it looks solid because you personally don't like competitive, team-based asymmetrical free-to-play multiplayer games? If it's the former, which competitive team-based asymmetrical multiplayer free-to-play games would you say look better? I'm eager to see how we could improve - we are still only in Alpha, after all. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-10-2014, 09:11 PM[249] Also, never gonna happen but Amy Hennig is one of the best in the industry. Wishing she would return to any future SP project. ―Darkmakaimura "Never" is a long time... look at what happened with Jordan Weisman and ShadowRun... ...of which I am a proud backer, btw. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-10-2014, 10:08 PM[250] There's a lot of semantics and genre bending you can make to disqualify any answer you're given because I'm unaware of a single game that fits all of those qualifiers, but that doesn't disqualify people from saying it looks like god damn garbage. ―Snapshot King Please allow me to re-phrase: Garbage for a team-based, competitive online multiplayer game (of which there are many), or garbage full stop? ―Monkeythumbz, 02-10-2014, 11:14 PM[251] It could be tied in to the story by Dumah, he used to hold gladiatorial events out of boredom. This could be the said gladiatorial event. ―Mackins I've compiled links to all the story blogs we've published for the game so far in one handy post on our official forum here: The Lore of Nosgoth . We've done our very best to ensure it synchs up with existing canon flawlessly. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-12-2014, 12:13 PM[252] Just an idea. ―Mackins It's a good one! Personally, I'd like to see if we could explore Dumah's staking by Vampire Hunters or Zephon capturing the Silenced Cathedral in a multiplayer context *if* we can... but it's a very big *if* and wouldn't be worked on for a very long time even if we committed to it. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-12-2014, 04:41 PM[253] #### Square Enix announces (Legacy of Kain) Nosgoth's microtransaction model and pricesEdit The point of that blog piece was to be as 100% open, honest and transparent about our monetisation model. This way, you know exactly what the score is even before registering for the game, we don't want you feeling like you've been misled or that anything's been obfuscated. That said, while Nosgoth is a free-to-play game, it's not 100% free of charge and we are still hoping to be rewarded for our work. The difference here is that you can play the game for free and then choose the amount of money you want to spend customising and specialising your characters. Even if everything is completely balanced, the team with the more options would win ―Lactose_Intolerant More options doesn't necessarily mean better options, especially if everything's equally balanced. It all depends on your personal play-style - if you're not much of a sniper, then you're going to ignore the Scout bow that gives you more damage but longer reload times and go for a bow that gives you lower damage and faster reloads (etc etc.) This image simply doesn't match up with the table on our website and in the OP. Just see for yourself. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-24-2014, 02:45 PM[254] IMO, this doesn't sound bad if: A) There aren't "runestone only" weapons / armor / skills. B) There isn't stuff that costs like 2,000,000 gold and 200 runestones. ―RalchAC Neither (a) nor (b) will be true for Nosgoth. When that image applies to a healthy majority of these games, It's hard not to resort to severe scepticism regarding the model, but there are several examples of how to do it right, I hope you manage to join them. ―redcrayon That's definitely our intention! ―Monkeythumbz, 02-24-2014, 03:41 PM[255] I think it was a bad pr move to even respond to this thread, it was already dead. ―Lactose_Intolerant I suppose that's the risk you take when you engage in dialogue. ―Monkeythumbz, 02-24-2014, 06:10 PM[256] #### STEAM Announcements & Updates 2014 III - Don't Believe The TagsEdit Nosgoth has micro-transactions that run up to 80$? No thanks, I don't care if you're calling them "sidegrades", I'm not supporting this.

Not until the big chain retail stores die out, and probably not even then.

―Turfster
Just FYI, there's currently nothing in Nosgoth's in-game store that costs \$80 - you can buy big bundles of Runestones (the game's premium currency) for 80 bucks, but that's not for a single in-game item microtransaction.
―Monkeythumbz, 02-25-2014, 01:26 PM[257]

#### LTTP: Legacy of Kain: Soul ReaverEdit

Stick with it.

Then play the far more amazing Soul Reaver 2.

―Uriah
^This (IMHO).
―Monkeythumbz, 03-19-2014, 06:22 PM[258]

#### Just finished Soul Reaver 2, I'm confused... (SPOILERS INSIDE)Edit

I've just finished Soul Reaver 2 and have begun Blood Omen 2 and am confused.

So at the end of SR2, Kain didn't let Raziel get absorbed into the Reaver, and this caused a paradox as he should have died then. Okay, gotcha.

But how does this allow the Hylden to break free from the pillars exactly? I thought that was due to Kain's corruption of the pillars, so what has Raziel becoming the Soul Reaver got to do with it?
Also, why aren't the Hylden in SR1?

Can anyone clear this up for me? I know there are some big Legacy of Kain fans on this board :P

―AHA-Lambda
If you want to engage in your own research, the best thing to do would be to take a look at the following two websites: They're both invaluable resources and always contain the most up-to-date info about the series.
―Monkeythumbz, 04-06-2014, 05:54 PM[259]

#### What I wouldn't give for another Legacy of Kain game.Edit

...but I should mention they have a lore dude on staff who ABSOLUTELY knows his shit.
―PedroLumpy
Thanks! The cheque's in the mail ;-)
―Monkeythumbz, 04-22-2014, 12:10 PM[260]

#### Nosgoth BETA Thread - since it's in steam sale...Edit

I just recently got into this, and despite my disappointment with the direction of the franchise, I'm really enjoying it. The movement is a bit clunky at times, but other than that games are intense. I'm also surprised that I enjoy playing as human more than as vampire. I feel like the vampire abilities need to be made a bit more interesting, but balance is obviously a huge issue there.
―nynt9
As a big legacy of kain fan I was a little bit perturbed as well. But I signed up for the alpha and I have no hard feelings. It is a good game in its own right. The voice overs in particular are spectacular and it is drenched in legacy of kain vibes. It doesn't hurt that I like competitive shooters.

If you want to see legacy of kain in more modern graphics, this is the place to do it btw. Just wait til the games goes to open beta then release. It is a f2p game with no plan to reset progress even now in closed beta. And the f2p is very generous...

You can rent/purchase any skill or weapon just with in game currency earned by playing.

And you get a class unlock every 5th level. I already have every class unlocked and I don't even play a ton. And the class unlocks are permanent. And you even get to unlock some alternate skins just by playing as well, good looking ones imo.

―Mobius and pet octopus
Even though I'm not longer at Square Enix London Studios and I'm not involved with this project any more, I can't tell you how much reading comments like these warms the cockles of my heart! I've perpetual love for Team Nosgoth.

PS: Sorry for necro-ing the thread, it's just been a while since my last post here.

―Monkeythumbz, 08-05-2014, 02:58 PM[261]

#### Eurogamer: The Legacy of Kain game that was cancelled three years inEdit

Wow, what an amazing article! Fantastic to see Bill go on the record about all of this.
Soul Reaver is crying out for a remake. Who owns the IP?
―Nothus
Still Square Enix, who own Crystal Dynamics through their acquisition of Eidos in 2009.

What's interesting is that Crystal Dynamics’ senior designer Michael Brinker has said that there's a "50/50 chance" of a new, single-player Legacy of Kain game releasing this generation and the studio has "in-house developers who really want to make that game", so a new entry in the series may still happen.

―Monkeythumbz, 05-27-2016, 10:27 AM[262]
I really like the shifting between worlds mechanic, never really seen it done in a 3D game.
…apart from in the original Soul Reaver games, you mean - right?
―Monkeythumbz, 05-27-2016, 05:23 PM[263]

### oBaEdit

#### Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain on PSN?Edit

This is the reason why I support Amy and Richard over at Naughty Dog 200%.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/angry.gif

Not sure if Eidos/Crystal Dynamics can ever bring LOK back to the same level as it once was though, they've lost Amy and Richard to Naughty Dog, and Kyle Mannerberg passed away, Jen Fernandez also left Crystal Dynamics, it makes me wonder how many of the key pieces are still with the team.

―Kittonwy

Don't forget Seth Carus, he was super influential on BO1 and SR1 and in my opinion one of the main reasons SR2 lost a lot of the magic. Amy and Rich get a lot of the spotlight, and well deserved, but Seth was one of the main reasons SR1 was so great.

I like Jen a lot, but I never understood why people like you thought she was a "key piece" of that franchise to the same level of Rich and Amy.

As far as key pieces are concerned, Riley Cooper is really about the only one left at Crystal from the original team lineup.

―oBa, 04-05-2008, 01:03 AM[264]
Yah Seth left during very early pre pro for SR2 if i remember correctly. He and Amy kind of had a falling out over creative differences and which direction they wanted the series to go in.

I know they tried to jumpstart a new one a few times, but it never really went anywhere. And with the financial status of Eidos, I really do not see that series being greenlit anytime soon.

Honestly, I think they should sell the rights of the series back to Dennis. (if he would even want it)
―oBa, 04-05-2008, 01:39 AM[265]

### whatevermortEdit

#### LTTP: Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2Edit

Next gen incoming ;)
―dose
Don't get your hopes up. Seriously.
―whatevermort, 12-05-2012, 09:19 PM[266]

#### Square-Enix ask you what do you want in 2013Edit

Legacy of Kain HD Collection & Reboot
―AHA-Lambda
I don't want to break your heart, but this isn't happening.
―whatevermort, 01-04-2013, 10:08 PM[267]

#### Square Enix registered Legacy of Kain related domainEdit

So Square Enix's domain registrar registered what seems to be a Legacy of Kain-related domain on Thursday. j.mp/Z1ZweL
That's a tweet just posted by @supererogatory.
―whatevermort, 02-09-2013, 07:06 PM[268]
What's the worst case scenario here?
―whatevermort, 02-09-2013, 07:11 PM[269]
Totally gonna be a Barlog joint.
―Inorigo
It's not.
―whatevermort, 02-09-2013, 11:54 PM[270]

#### Black male (non-stereotypical) protagonists in video games?Edit

http://www.jeuxvideomagazine.com/var/media/16855/original/bc-bg-s-gein-05-zps7aed63f6-16854340.jpg

Gein from the cancelled Legacy Of Kain: Dead Sun would have been.

―whatevermort, 06-22-2013, 07:58 PM[271]
what makes this dude black?
―Pinko Marx

You're just going to have to take it from me that he is.

―whatevermort, 06-22-2013, 08:08 PM[272]

#### Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver was released 15 years agoEdit

And the new one would've been released this year if it wasn't cancelled.
―jhmtehgamr20xx
Yup. And it would have been pretty damned ace.
―whatevermort, 08-21-2014, 02:57 PM[273]

#### Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video)Edit

Oh, look.

i was wondering how long it would take for something like this to come out.

―whatevermort, 02-23-2015, 01:23 PM[274]
I worked on this game. Glad something has come out of it, even if that's just excitement from people who can see what we were going for. (And this was running on 360, so remember that - the creaking you can see was the engine running two entire levels at the same time, so that you could shift realms at any point, something that UE3 really isn't designed to do.)

I hope somebody leaks some videos of other parts of the game. I don't have any, annoyingly, but others who worked on it might have a video of The Temple Of The Whore Saint, which was one of the dungeons. The thing to remember is that this bit is a small chunk of what was essentially Hyrule field - an expanse designed to lead from place to place. The person playing this is really taking their time with a bit of the game that has zero missions - the actual structure was far more Zelda/Soul Reaver than this might appear.

―whatevermort, 02-23-2015, 01:58 PM[275]
Despite not being a direct continuation with Kain and Raziel, the continuation of the story as described by Mama Robotnik sounds fascinating.
―Xater
It was. I am pretty proud of what we were doing.
―whatevermort, 02-23-2015, 02:15 PM[276]
If you're answering questions do you have any info on what the project was back when it was "envisioned as a small project (possibly downloadable?)". I'm curious what the original scope for that smaller LoK game would have been.
―dancrane212
That's the only info that I think is wrong. It was never a downloadable game, not as long as I worked on it. Always intended as AAA. Same with the PS4 launch thing - it was intended for cross gen, all systems.
―whatevermort, 02-23-2015, 03:12 PM[277]
I still haven't been able to watch the video. That said I think what I need to help with the heart ache is confirmation that this was going to be a shitty reboot ala Tomb Raider conplete with QTEs, hand holding, automated everything, map of "secret collectables", dumbed down optional dungeons, etc. Tell me this was all about trying (and failing) to be either Arkham Asylum, Uncharted or both.

Please don't tell me this was going to be similar to Soul Reaver, with actual platforming, exploration and puzzles.

―jimboton
Sorry. But the plan was: platforming, puzzles, dungeons, huge bosses, a MASSIVE amount of exploration. Outside the tutorial bit (which is in the video), no handholding. Jumping was automated (like Zelda meets AA), but the actual platforming was all puzzle based (realm shifting, tricky jumps, having to move quickly, planning in advance etc).

The combat was very Batmanish, though, only much faster. Like an angry pinball with fatalities.

―whatevermort, 02-23-2015, 04:51 PM[278]
I loved what I saw with the exception of how he got his wings. That was kind of anticlimactic, too easy for something that will open up exploration. Should have been after a mini-boss or something that would explain the transformation/mutation and not just a floating icon. It's a silly thing to nitpick, but everything else seemed so great that's the only thing that comes to mind.

Man, I want this done in current-gen machines.

―FunkyPajamas
That's because this was the vertical slice. (Not like the Bioshock Infinite one, where it was basically a video - this was actually 1/4 of the game totally playable.) The plan actually was that you'd get the wings second dungeon or something, but it's accelerated in this demo to allow the player to show off the flying etc.
―whatevermort, 02-23-2015, 05:36 PM[279]

#### Whatever happened to: Legacy of Kain?Edit

There are elements, plot and gameplay...the remind me so much of LOTR: Shadows of Mordor
―AlphaSnake
Yes. There really are. Dead Sun was cancelled before Mordor was ever announced. I have played Mordor. Dead Sun was better.
―whatevermort, 07-20-2015, 07:51 PM[280]
I would not be surprised in the slightest if the game changed hands and was sold to WB, to be completely rebranded and reskinned as an LOTR game. It certainly wouldn't be the first time to happen.

There have been times (albeit non very public) where games were canceled or sold off to other publishers, so that the original publisher can avoid the loss or offset as much of the early development costs as possible.

I'm certain this is no mere coincidence.

Former industry writer and friend to many PR folks from the business

―AlphaSnake
Yeah, that didn't happen. I worked on the game. If a producer from SE went to WB, taking ideas? Maybe. (That would explain a certain narrative device in the new batman game as well.) But SoM is nothing like BS to actually play.
―whatevermort, 07-20-2015, 08:08 PM[281]
Were you at Climax or SE?

Aren't ideas in such similarity a copyright? And if they were to be used in another game, couldn't that be infringement? People often sign NDA when they leave companies with creative such as this, so as to avoid spilling ideas that belonged elsewhere.

―AlphaSnake
Climax. And I'm not suggesting that at all. Nothing bad happened. It's more, ideas spill. Somebody might have said, What about this? And then it came to pass.

Dead Sun was cancelled. No use crying over it. It would have been very very good - far better than the video suggests, and far better than some people who haven't played it think it would have been. But it was canned, and because of that, Sam, the director, went off and made Her Story, which might be the most interesting narrative game released in years. So that's a good thing.

―whatevermort, 07-20-2015, 08:21 PM[282]

#### CD: Legacy of Kain has a '50/50 chance' of coming backEdit

Not a fucking chance in hell.

EDIT: actually, no. I wouldn't be shocked to see an iOS thing a la that Hitman/Tomb Raider one, but with realm-shifting puzzles. But a full AAA experience? No way.

―whatevermort, 11-06-2015, 01:46 PM[283]
Just don't make it that bullshit Assassin's Creed/Mordor type game that was leaked and scrapped.

I'd rather a solid oldschool game like the original than a terrible 3D game.

―Phreakuency
Just so you know: it was far more Zelda than Ass or Mordor. Just FYI.
―whatevermort, 11-06-2015, 02:00 PM[284]

#### Why was Legacy Of Kain never revived?Edit

Who would have thought a brainless MP spinoff of one of the most story heavy dark action adventure series would not be succesful.

Stupid suits.

―Ahasverus

Nosgoth was Dead Sun's multiplayer, and was never meant to be F2P at that stage, so it was always going to be an awkward fit. Originally, Nosgoth was meant to have a story told ambiently that tied it into the original games - it was meant to be a bridge between them and the world as it was found when Dead Sun started. Not sure if that story stuff was kept.

Even though I'm a huge fan, I'm not married to the idea of Hennig writing and could totally go for another one if the new writers were up to par. Though apart from a reboot/remake of Blood Omen, I think at this point it's best to let the series rest rather than risk damaging it.

Though I have to admit the prospect of a Witcher style Kain game makes me tingle in all the right places.

―Correctomundo

The two writers on the project were Sam Barlow (who wrote Silent Hill: Shattered Memories and then went on to make Her Story) and myself (a twice-shortlisted Arthur C Clarke Award novelist). I think we had a killer story planned, but there we go. Some of the fanbase absolutely hate us because we're not AH, and because we weren't going to write the whole thing in a more archaic form of English.

―whatevermort, 05-04-2017, 11:27 AM[285]

## CreditsEdit

Thanks to Denis Dyack, dose, Goron2000, Keir "Keir_Eidos" Edmonds, Mama Robotnik, George "Monkeythumbz" Kelion, oBa, James "whatevermort" Smythe, all other users, and NeoGAF.

## ReferencesEdit

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2. Legacy of Kain: Defiance... -_- at NeoGAF (by Brobzoid), post #18 (by Denis Dyack)
3. Legacy of Kain: Defiance... -_- at NeoGAF (by Brobzoid), post #19 (by Denis Dyack)
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5. Legacy of Kain: Defiance... -_- at NeoGAF (by Brobzoid), post #42 (by Denis Dyack)
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10. Some Soul Reaver/Legacy of Kain news at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #66 (by dose)
11. LTTP: Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 at NeoGAF (by Kard8p3), post #22 (by dose)
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14. Square Enix registered Legacy of Kain related domain at NeoGAF (by miladesn), post #265 (by dose)
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75. Kain and Raziel playable in Guardian of Light. at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #121 (by Mama Robotnik)
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84. Legacy of Kain 6 - The first section of the unreleased game at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #2 (by Mama Robotnik)
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113. Soul Reaver may have been the most overly ambitious game ever. (research thread) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #2 (by Mama Robotnik)
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144. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #230 (by Mama Robotnik)
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148. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #361 (by Mama Robotnik)
149. Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story information at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #1 (by Mama Robotnik)
150. Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story information at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #5 (by Mama Robotnik)
151. Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story information at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #30 (by Mama Robotnik)
152. Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story information at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #31 (by Mama Robotnik)
153. Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story information at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #41 (by Mama Robotnik)
154. Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story information at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #42 (by Mama Robotnik)
155. Legacy of Kain Dead Sun (cancelled) – Story information at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #48 (by Mama Robotnik)
156. The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #179 (by Monkeythumbz)
157. The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #191 (by Monkeythumbz)
158. The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #198 (by Monkeythumbz)
159. The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #200 (by Monkeythumbz)
160. The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #219 (by Monkeythumbz)
161. The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains (Mama Robotnik Research Thread) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #234 (by Monkeythumbz)
162. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (PS4, cancelled) / Legacy of Kain: Nosgoth (PC, upcoming) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #92 (by Monkeythumbz)
163. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (PS4, cancelled) / Legacy of Kain: Nosgoth (PC, upcoming) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #117 (by Monkeythumbz)
164. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (PS4, cancelled) / Legacy of Kain: Nosgoth (PC, upcoming) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #127 (by Monkeythumbz)
165. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (PS4, cancelled) / Legacy of Kain: Nosgoth (PC, upcoming) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #158 (by Monkeythumbz)
166. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #126 (by Monkeythumbz)
167. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #137 (by Monkeythumbz)
168. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #177 (by Monkeythumbz)
169. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #187 (by Monkeythumbz)
170. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #215 (by Monkeythumbz)
171. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #226 (by Monkeythumbz)
172. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #230 (by Monkeythumbz)
173. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #247 (by Monkeythumbz)
174. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #253 (by Monkeythumbz)
175. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #260 (by Monkeythumbz)
176. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #264 (by Monkeythumbz)
177. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #270 (by Monkeythumbz)
178. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #288 (by Monkeythumbz)
179. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #292 (by Monkeythumbz)
180. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #298 (by Monkeythumbz)
181. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #301 (by Monkeythumbz)
182. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #307 (by Monkeythumbz)
183. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #311 (by Monkeythumbz)
184. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #315 (by Monkeythumbz)
185. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #322 (by Monkeythumbz)
186. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #324 (by Monkeythumbz)
187. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #331 (by Monkeythumbz)
188. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #334 (by Monkeythumbz)
189. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #337 (by Monkeythumbz)
190. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #339 (by Monkeythumbz)
191. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #346 (by Monkeythumbz)
192. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #349 (by Monkeythumbz)
193. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #350 (by Monkeythumbz)
194. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #355 (by Monkeythumbz)
195. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #357 (by Monkeythumbz)
196. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #360 (by Monkeythumbz)
197. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #364 (by Monkeythumbz)
198. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #380 (by Monkeythumbz)
199. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #382 (by Monkeythumbz)
200. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #388 (by Monkeythumbz)
201. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #391 (by Monkeythumbz)
202. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #394 (by Monkeythumbz)
203. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #398 (by Monkeythumbz)
204. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #407 (by Monkeythumbz)
205. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #408 (by Monkeythumbz)
206. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #413 (by Monkeythumbz)
207. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #414 (by Monkeythumbz)
208. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #418 (by Monkeythumbz)
209. Nosgoth (Square Enix/Psyonix, Legacy of Kain, F2P) Announcement Trailer at NeoGAF (by Musiol), post #423 (by Monkeythumbz)
210. My visit to Square Enix London (Legacy of Kain related) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #26 (by Monkeythumbz)
211. Nosgoth - Hunters Class Background Revealed at NeoGAF (by Darkmakaimura), post #6 (by Monkeythumbz)
212. Nosgoth - Hunters Class Background Revealed at NeoGAF (by Darkmakaimura), post #15 (by Monkeythumbz)
213. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #85 (by Monkeythumbz)
214. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #91 (by Monkeythumbz)
215. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #100 (by Monkeythumbz)
216. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #104 (by Monkeythumbz)
217. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #106 (by Monkeythumbz)
218. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #108 (by Monkeythumbz)
219. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #112 (by Monkeythumbz)
220. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #117 (by Monkeythumbz)
221. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #120 (by Monkeythumbz)
222. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #131 (by Monkeythumbz)
223. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #133 (by Monkeythumbz)
224. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #137 (by Monkeythumbz)
225. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #141 (by Monkeythumbz)
226. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #144 (by Monkeythumbz)
227. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #148 (by Monkeythumbz)
228. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #149 (by Monkeythumbz)
229. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #153 (by Monkeythumbz)
230. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #162 (by Monkeythumbz)
231. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #169 (by Monkeythumbz)
232. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #181 (by Monkeythumbz)
233. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #188 (by Monkeythumbz)
234. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #191 (by Monkeythumbz)
235. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #195 (by Monkeythumbz)
236. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #196 (by Monkeythumbz)
237. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #200 (by Monkeythumbz)
238. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #211 (by Monkeythumbz)
239. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #220 (by Monkeythumbz)
240. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #226 (by Monkeythumbz)
241. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #233 (by Monkeythumbz)
242. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #234 (by Monkeythumbz)
243. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #239 (by Monkeythumbz)
244. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #242 (by Monkeythumbz)
245. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #245 (by Monkeythumbz)
246. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #252 (by Monkeythumbz)
247. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #256 (by Monkeythumbz)
248. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #261 (by Monkeythumbz)
249. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #263 (by Monkeythumbz)
250. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #265 (by Monkeythumbz)
251. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #267 (by Monkeythumbz)
252. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #271 (by Monkeythumbz)
253. Nosgoth Gameplay Premiere at NeoGAF (by Acidote), post #273 (by Monkeythumbz)
254. Square Enix announces (Legacy of Kain) Nosgoth's microtransaction model and prices at NeoGAF (by Nirolak), post #30 (by Monkeythumbz)
255. Square Enix announces (Legacy of Kain) Nosgoth's microtransaction model and prices at NeoGAF (by Nirolak), post #35 (by Monkeythumbz)
256. Square Enix announces (Legacy of Kain) Nosgoth's microtransaction model and prices at NeoGAF (by Nirolak), post #46 (by Monkeythumbz)
257. STEAM Announcements & Updates 2014 III - Don't Believe The Tags at NeoGAF (by MRORANGE), post #2195 (by Monkeythumbz)
258. LTTP: Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver at NeoGAF (by AHA-Lambda), post #19 (by Monkeythumbz)
259. Just finished Soul Reaver 2, I'm confused... (SPOILERS INSIDE) at NeoGAF (by AHA-Lambda), post #6 (by Monkeythumbz)
260. What I wouldn't give for another Legacy of Kain game. at NeoGAF (by Mineshaft_Gap), post #9 (by Monkeythumbz)
261. Nosgoth BETA Thread - since it's in steam sale... at NeoGAF (by Thrakier), post #41 (by Monkeythumbz)
262. Eurogamer: The Legacy of Kain game that was cancelled three years in at NeoGAF (by Mr. Tibbs), post #34 (by Monkeythumbz)
263. Eurogamer: The Legacy of Kain game that was cancelled three years in at NeoGAF (by Mr. Tibbs), post #45 (by Monkeythumbz)
264. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain on PSN? at NeoGAF (by prodystopian), post #56 (by oBa)
265. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain on PSN? at NeoGAF (by prodystopian), post #58 (by oBa)
266. CD: LTTP: Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 at NeoGAF (by Kard8p3), post #36 (by whatevermort)
267. Square-Enix ask you what do you want in 2013 at NeoGAF (by GhostTrick), post #291 (by whatevermort)
268. Square Enix registered Legacy of Kain related domain at NeoGAF (by miladesn), post #5 (by whatevermort)
269. Square Enix registered Legacy of Kain related domain at NeoGAF (by miladesn), post #21 (by whatevermort)
270. Square Enix registered Legacy of Kain related domain at NeoGAF (by miladesn), post #248 (by whatevermort)
271. Black male (non-stereotypical) protagonists in video games? at NeoGAF (by Vermillion), post #262 (by whatevermort)
272. Black male (non-stereotypical) protagonists in video games? at NeoGAF (by Vermillion), post #266 (by whatevermort)
273. Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver was released 15 years ago at NeoGAF (by Tizoc), post #28 (by whatevermort)
274. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #29 (by whatevermort)
275. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #68 (by whatevermort)
276. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #89 (by whatevermort)
277. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #134 (by whatevermort)
278. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #174 (by whatevermort)
279. Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun (updated with E3 2012 Square Enix Teaser and Pre-Boss Video) at NeoGAF (by Mama Robotnik), post #196 (by whatevermort)
280. Whatever happened to: Legacy of Kain? at NeoGAF (by MadClacker), post #21 (by whatevermort)
281. Whatever happened to: Legacy of Kain? at NeoGAF (by MadClacker), post #30 (by whatevermort)
282. Whatever happened to: Legacy of Kain? at NeoGAF (by MadClacker), post #35 (by whatevermort)
283. CD: Legacy of Kain has a '50/50 chance' of coming back at NeoGAF (by AHA-Lambda), post #33 (by whatevermort)
284. CD: Legacy of Kain has a '50/50 chance' of coming back at NeoGAF (by AHA-Lambda), post #42 (by whatevermort)
285. CD: Why was Legacy Of Kain never revived? at NeoGAF (by Exodust), post #111 (by whatevermort)

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