User talk:Baziel

For discussions prior to February 26, 2011, see: User_talk:Baziel/Archive

Audio samples
I'm glad you like those - it took hours to dig the correct samples out of the BO2 data. :P More to come if I can get Defiance working.

The pronunciation is a great idea. I think it would be easily possible. Maybe it would be better to keep them in the notes sections instead of adding them to the infobox? Or maybe if I can dig up enough info we can add "development" (behind-the-scenes) sections to every character and I can add the pronunciations in there. It would be much easier to format this way (within the article) if we need to use multiple samples. --Dubiel 23:35, February 26, 2011 (UTC)

Brother Order
ok my name is Iza and you have the order of how Raziel and his brothers were risen wrong it goes and even states it in the soul reaver booklet Raziel, Turel, Rahab, Zephon, Melchiah, and Dumah)and for the matter of Dumah being the third strongest is wrong as well, I remember it vividly saying he was the weakest but in the years since Raziel's execution he became the second strongest he even claimed to be stronger than Kain himself and as we all remember Raziel told him Kain would kill him for such words just wanted to clear that up your welcome.

Previous unsigned comment by Izashi Kenshi 

Turel and character articles
Indeed I do want to "revamp" (urrgh, pun) all articles in that manner. Just takes a lot of time to dig up everything. It would take years without your preliminary writing :) Thanks for the compliment ;) --Dubiel 12:59, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry
Hi Baziel, just dropping in to say sorry for the lack of activity again - hectic times :) Awesome work with the minor BO2 NPCs and referencing everything, I hope to lend my support again in a couple weeks/months. --Dubiel 20:46, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

Reflist tribulations
Very weird indeed. It could just be a Wikia fault - you know how they are with their server crap. I'll keep a close eye on the page and try to find out what's wrong if it happens again. --Dubiel 20:25, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hey
Hey Baziel! You did a good job with this wiki! :) I have decided to join and help out a bit too. It´s my first time joining a Wiki page so I am a bit confused about all the stuff and the way posting new messages works :D Raina Audron 04:02, May 24, 2011 (UTC)Raina Audron

Prima stuff
Hi Baz. I think you have the BO1 Prima Guide. Do you know if it gives any names to the weird individual types of mutants in and around Dark Eden? --Dubiel 22:23, May 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think that list is from Prima because on Dark Chronicle it states the guide calls one of the Demons' variants "Ogres", and they are nowhere to be found in the file. Hopefully we can clear this up soon.


 * I have another request if possible - I don't own the PC version of BO1 and am looking for the PC cinematic files so I can add top-quality screenshots. Do you have this version? --Dubiel 15:28, May 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * I heard of a method to convert the actual files into .smk movies which can then be broken down into images, which could be uploaded with impunity. I want to try it out, but I can't do it without the files themselves. It doesn't work on the PS1 version due to different encoding. --Dubiel 18:04, May 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Please do, thanks! I'm digging up the old thread now and I'll direct you to it if you like. --Dubiel 19:10, May 31, 2011 (UTC)

hi Baziel! it's Ber from the nosgothic Realm forums... I'm kind of new here... how should I modify the Sarafan Sorceress page so the image I uploaded appears above the info section of the article?

Regards!

Hi Baziel!

Yeah I managed to figure out how the site works so I will start uploading some images this week! thank you for your help!

About the Prima Guides, yeah I have them I just received the last one (Defiance) today! and you are right is pure gold! loads of really useful information.

One more thing, do you use msn or an email? to stay in touch and coordinate the website's edition and updates? that would be cool!

Best regards

Ber

Still figuring out!
Alright man! I just added you! I hope to meet u online soon, nice u are in the UK too!

Ber.midnight 20:19, June 27, 2011 (UTC)

Reaching
Hey, pal,

I made it here. :) Hope I get my lazy ass working soon. I suck at doing stuff when I most should; but I guess LoK deserves the effort. See ya around.

Nessdark.

About the move again
You might've heard that the Combine OverWiki is at last departing Wikia. They've had more significant contact and amicable relations with the Wikia staff than we've ever had. There's also news that Wikia are playing around with and warping their own Javascript which, and not to sound like an alarmist, will make it incredibly difficult to expand the wiki and retain a consistent style here for years to come if they continually crop up.

I would say it's becoming a matter of when, not if, we also move our content somewhere free of this nonsense... Do you think it would be worthwhile for me to start looking into the technical details and hosting? --Dubiel 17:45, July 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you guys want to chat about our options via email or IM? Three-way conversation through wiki talk pages is awkward. Ardeth Silvereni 08:49, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Amazing. The 'Council' is about to meet? I hope this issue doesn't get too serious. I wish the best for this source. Good luck, you guys. NessDark 14:49, July 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sent an email to both of you (Baziel and Ardeth). I can cc you too NessDark, if you wish, and any other community members who are interested. --Dubiel 23:26, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am interested. NessDark 23:36, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * (Thanks, Bazy) NessDark 15:18, July 31, 2011 (UTC)



Enemy list
They aren't based on the Prima guide - I adapted them from the BO1 enemy audit made by the Blood Omnicide team. I've also dug into the game's data files, and there doesn't seem to be "official" names for any of them. If the Prima guide is indeed as erratic as we discussed, I think this is the closest we will ever get to an official list, short of travelling back in time to Silicon Knights of 1995. :) --Dubiel 15:05, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah. What's more, I have all of the animation files and sprites from BO1 so there is a lot of potential new content, but I'm reluctant to put it up until (if) we move - don't want to leave the good stuff behind here with the trolls of Wikia. --Dubiel 19:56, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Achievements?
Hi Baz. As you can see I haven't done anything in aeons so don't take my say as too weighty :) But I'd say Achievements are definitely a feature to be avoided like the plague. I have observed a few wikis making use of the achievements and in my estimation, it serves only to incite a "quantity over quality" mentality, and I believe the successful sites with it are flourishing in spite of it, not because of it. It could stimulate editing, but of what calibre? More Mr. Quackman-style drivel from one-time joiners? And I'm particularly worried about the "upload a photo for points!" badges. More mass-deletion for us. What kind of productivity could that ever inspire? And aside from the heavily questionable utility, Wikia is completely diverging from the philosophy of encyclopedic content in favour of Facebook-esque mania, clutching at straws really. It seems to me that the entire feature is only here because some upper-level investor demanded much more traffic, the fool next to him said "ey, Facebook has traffic, let's copy them!" and along came these social media "enhancements" and half a screen of adverts to torment those of us who give a damn. Sorry for ranting, but I don't feel much good can come of it. That said, I wouldn't oppose a short trial period for them to find out if I'm proven wrong or right. Stones too can lie. :P I would also seek Ardeth's opinion on this; she has been running sites far longer than I. Dubiel 23:05, September 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * I should clarify that I did very strongly consider adding Achievements here in the past, around when you made me an admin (with about 30 badges named after quotes from the games), but after I did some research and browsing I wasn't able to bring myself to do it. It seemed that they had a negative effect almost everywhere apart from the most recently-made wikis for newer, blockbusting (and, frankly, less intellectual) games with several editors to police and guide new ones. I don't think any of the three of us have the will or patience to handle another Mr. Quackman, let alone many of them... --Dubiel 22:56, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Incantations
Sorry for the late answer. I have no objection at all, please go ahead with the renames back to spell :) I will help if you like. I moved them to "incantations" based on deleted voiceovers in BO1 (and to differentiate from Reaver Spells), but I rechecked the manual recently and it uses "spells" exclusively. So I've come around to that line of thought. Awesome continued work here - it's inspirational :) Dubiel 22:48, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Dumah
I'm creating a Legacy of Kain theme for the iPhone/iPod Touch and I can't seem to find a good picture of Dumah as seen in the Soul Reaver intro. Any chance you could point me in the right direction? Any help is much appreciated. Thanks.

Previous unsigned comment by User: Guardian of Death 

FB stuff
Hi Baz, sorry for the dismal reply rate recently - I'm writing from a mobile browser this weekend, and I saw your mails, but writing emails is next-to-impossible on this thing. :( Thankfully wiki code is editable. I also didn't even notice the FB css had worked until now, due to cache nonsense (there was no way to preview the box either). It was shamelessly pasted in from another wiki, and I agree on the visible avatars being unwelcome, so I'll be having a look at what alterations or substitutions can be made immediately. The iframe stuff may work, I'll try it now. --Dubiel 17:56, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Raziel images
I believe the images were obtained from YT clips sadly, so I dont know where the one of his open mouth facing the screen is from. However the one where he is opening his cowl is confirmed to be from "Defiance" since I found it on a LOK website and it was in the 'defiance' section of the screenshots.

And the info I discovered was from the Raziel wiki on Soul Reaver. I wanted it to be added here since this spot was abit lacking when it came to the big questions about him and his appearence etc.

Oblivion Dragoon 23:04, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Statue and black backdrop pics
The statue screen of Raziel is no doubt a concept or 'final product' picture of Raziel from Soul Reaver 2, I know for a fact since I played the game and saw this statue in the fire forge.

The black backround picture is a picture of Raziel from Defiance that is indeed official since It's in the stratagy guide of LOK Defiance, AND one of the unlockable tome pictures you can obtain in said game. So you wont need to worry about those two. xP Oblivion Dragoon 23:16, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

BO2 end stuff
Hi Baz, how's it going! Congrats on the amazing and prolific work on BO2!

Agreed on that idea for the BO2 page, go for it. For a long time I've been thinking of fixing up the Wikipedia pages themselves to be more presentable and well-sourced, just haven't gotten around to it. Anyway, no need for us to retain their external structure here at this site.

Frankly, I only added Curiosities as a space-filler category to fix sixteen spaces - I still have no idea what exactly should belong there, but I felt it could become a general "dumping ground" for things which simply don't belong elsewhere. However, in practicality, the Terms category already fulfils this role perfectly (and most of what's currently in Curiosities can be validly transplanted there), leaving Curiosities redundant and next to useless. Technically, we could still take advantage of it for "silly" content, like Toon Kain and his fearsome cardboard tube, but still I don't think there is nearly enough of this kind of stuff in the series to justify it. So right now my idea is to deprecate Curiosities, move the musics into Media (and also add the Gallery category there to flesh it out fully), but this leaves us with an empty space on the main page, and I am really scratching my head trying to think of a potential new or old major category to take it. Do you have any ideas?

Personally, I think Cabal Contacts fit best in Terms; characters covers only individuals at the moment, and I wouldn't say they are a formal faction. The Guardians and the Vampire Lieutenants also kind of fall into the same territory, and we've thrown those articles into Terms too. Maybe we could try a sub-faction category also (though there are not really many factions in the first place).

About the fatal paradox timeline: you're absolutely right. I always wanted to ensure that this article has a slightly different, slightly more eye-catching title to the others, not only because it's the most significant paradox, but also so any future series developers can't ever come along and say "urrgh this series is so convoluted, this timeline that timeline, who knows which timeline we're in, let's just reboot". But I couldn't think of a more accurate title, and it's never even addressed or mentioned again after SR2, so it's difficult. Probably best as you say to go for fourth timeline after all... --Dubiel 00:04, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Team Raziel&Kain
Just wondering, since you are a good fan of the LOK series; would you be interested in joining up to either Team Kain or Raziel or heck, even both? We need more epic hardcore fans to join our ranks; so if you know anyone else on here, tell them to head over to Facebook and find us and exclaim why they want to join etc. =P

I would greatly appreciate if you joined up, thank you. nn Oblivion Dragoon 21:10, March 5, 2012 (UTC)

Links to the teams
Ah I feared you would have trouble. Anyways here's the links to Team Raziel and Kain. xP

Team Raziel:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/190247804342749/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUMF79TG018 (Trailer for Team Raziel)

Sorry to interrupt but thats Assassin's Creed! I just paused that exact song to watch this vid, I freaked out because I though my computer was messing up. So, i paused it and the music stopped, now I'm doing this.Ezio Auditore 04:22, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Team Kain:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/179769455397826/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSqiSNdA83s&list=FLy8K70N-pRhLLWzPPb4N-Jg&index=2&feature=plpp_video

(Trailer for Team Kain)

hopefully this helps. Just send a message to the admin (initials B.S.) and tell them who you are and you should be able to get in. =P

Oblivion Dragoon 21:37, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Help
I had started editing before I got this account, and is there anyway I can claim that editing? Heres my # thingy: 98.196.67.145, I was in the middle editing/creating the Raziel (SR2) boss when I got an account.Ezio Auditore 04:33, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks anyway though.Ezio Auditore 05:04, March 11, 2012 (UTC)\


 * Thanks again. I have a feeling this is going to go on for a bit. Ezio Auditore 22:14, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Bots 'n links
Yeah, sorry about the suddenness, it's something I intended to whip through quickly (following a process similar to the one at The Vault), making sure we get a precedent established for this while we're still a fairly small wiki. Since I was fresh from the big image categorisation, thought it would be best to fly through this too :)

I know how to operate bots when it comes to simple tasks, but I haven't been able to use the Device one since at Wikia you need to make applications for permission expressing what you're going to do with them. I had created it to reshuffle some categories (specifically, the Characters one), but I didn't realise approval was needed, so in the end I just did the edits myself. With the broken links and redirects stuff, manual fixes using several tabs and the What Links Here button will probably prove quicker. You needn't do it, I can fly through it this week, and it's my mess after all. :P --Dubiel 17:19, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

Did you know...
I've noticed that the Did You Know section of the home page hasn't changed in some time. Is there any chance that it could be changed?

Just throwing somthing out. :) Ezio Auditore 23:26, April 2, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!Ezio Auditore 02:36, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Wow
I was blindsided today to learn, from working on his article, that Paul Lukather (Vorador) is 86 years of age, even older than Tony. I wonder how many fans are aware of that? --Dubiel 22:14, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

Post-BO era
That's what I was intending, but if you would like to split them up as before, that's fine with me too :). Stupid story: I had originally outlined the post-BO era as on my user page, but then when I started doing actual work on the BO2 era page, I completely forgot to recheck that and started writing them both as one. When I recognised this mistake - well over halfway through the article's completion - I just swore and said "bleh, let the two be one". :P I ultimately haven't changed it, because I've since noticed that the official timeline also presented all of this as one single time period, but if you prefer, we can of course split them up again. I have pages half-written and part-written on my computer for all of the other eras by now, but it requires at lot of time to get them perfect: I sort of need to use surgically precise wording and referencing due to the timeline changes and all that, but they also have to be accessible to Joe Schmoe - so it's a nightmare. The Sarafan era is especially tough, because some sources contradict each other as to exactly when the Sarafan faction was formed for instance... --Dubiel 23:23, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure, that's an excellent point. I think I'll actually do a full rename to "post-Blood Omen era" in that spirit. Having given it a bit of thought, I feel it's best that I rework all this to adhere to the official timeline as closely as possible. Therefore, I'll probably rename or reshuffle the other eras a bit as well until it's perfect. --Dubiel 12:30, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Vorgeschichte
Re Vorgeschichte: I've started dropping it from "appearances" and infobox sections because I've come to the conclusion it's just so dubious that I shouldn't really have coupled it with the games and other comics in that way to begin with. I think it's best to invoke it only as a supplementary half-official "extra", like the action figures and other merchandise, but with very little bearing on the story, if any. Let me know what you think?

Also thanks for replacing the BO1 images and all. You're way faster than I am :) --Dubiel 12:03, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

RE: Welcome back
Wow, thanks. I rarely give out welcome messages that nice on my wiki. I'm a big fan of the series and just completed a playthrough of all five games for the first time (my girlfriend recently found me copies of Blood Omen 1 & 2 which I'd been lacking for 9 years) so I'm on a bit of a LoK high right now. I really was sick of that anon user and then I got disconnected from the internet for 3 years. Don't know how much longer I'll have internet, but I'll do my best to add some quality info while I'm around. hashtalk 02:54, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Your pointers
Yes, there are a lot of details missing, but I was trying to keep it as simple as I could. That, and some inadequate language probably led you to misunderstand some of what I wrote. Not that I don't appreciate the tips and you do make some good points that aren't in there. I'll definately need to rewrite it. hashtalk 18:08, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Anniversary
That's a great question. I'll definitely have completed Kain's article for the event, but I'm sure we could do more. What I'd really like to aim for is bringing the Kain, Raziel and Vorador articles - the not-so-holy trinity of fan favourite vampire characters - to maximum quality. :) I think that could be done, actually, but I desperately need good, high-res cutscene screenshots of each of them for aesthetic purposes. BO1 is no problem for me, but I'm unable to take images from any of the games from SR1 to Defiance, which is a pain. If you could help grab a few of these, I think these three articles will reach a great standard by the first of July.

I might also look into a slight redesign of the main page, and I've got another pretty good idea blossoming in mind too, which may be crazy, but better keep it between us for now in case it happens, or all will be spoiled. E-mail me if you're interested! --Dubiel 22:21, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Just Want To Say
I Love This Wiki!!

Cutscenes
You are awesome Baz, I can't overestimate how useful all of those screencaps are and will be. Sincerest commendations to you for all of that - I can imagine handing all those files is a colossal pain. No hurry on the last few, as I still have a good bit of stuff to complete for Kain's article alone. Probably be done this weekend, and then I can try moving on to Raziel. Re: the fmvs - don't worry about these, as I have the original (uncompressed!) movie files from all five games and can extract specific frames at will, and that includes credits. It's a temporary strain on the harddrive, but it's worth it ;) I think I'll also be able to sort something out for the Defiance cutscenes on PC, though we'll see if it works well or not. If you're interested to know the method for dealing with fmvs just let me know. Essentially all you need to read and break them down are PSS Plex (for the PS1 and PS2 games) and the RAD Video tools (for PC, and for converting the avi movies to bmps), both free programs. Blood Omen 1's videos are slightly more tedious to break down on both formats, but I've succeeded in doing so with wrace's tools, and just have to start uploading the caps sometime. --Dubiel 16:59, June 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sent ya an important mail (just in case you didn't see it). Happy birthday by the way. :) --Dubiel 22:01, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Background
OK, this is alarming, but I see the message and I'll add my own clarifications and profuse apologies - responsibility lies entirely with me in this regard. Looking back through the forum, I wasn't even vaguely aware that this image was created by Umah herself (I thought it had been the work of Eidos and fell under terms of free use), and I missed an incredibly important post. No malice or "theft" of any individual's hard work was ever intended. I will try to explain this in my e-mail, and for the time being I will agree that we should probably use no background until this is resolved. --Dubiel 11:33, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Timelines
Timelines is sorta-kinda done. I think it's finished as far as original content goes. But what I intend later is to fuse in the "Events" sections of the four timeline articles, so we have a full chronology of the Legacy of Kain series all in one place as well as in their respective articles. However, that won't be possible until all four timeline articles are complete (which, itself, won't be possible until all era articles are complete)... will take some time :P --Dubiel 21:54, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Hi Baz, Ber here

I know I have not been in touch lately, but I was wondering now that you are planning and working in several updates for the Wiki... have you thought of sticking a slideshow on the frontpage? If yes, I have selected 4 pictures to display, they have a nice resolution and could be linked to some areas of the Wiki... please let me know if you'd like me to send you these pics...

Abother thing... and I'd like to really push for this one - what about having Raziel and Kain in the background? Raziel to the left side and Kain to the right, I can edit this picture to fit the screen size and give enough space between the characters and I can potentially apply the background to the site (I am a web designer, although I never worked with Wikia before thus I'm not very familliar with it's UI, but I can give it a go)

Thirdly... please let me know if you ned any help with the edition of images and I would be pleased to help! I am online everyday from 9:00 am (GMT) so please feel free to drop me a note.

Congratulations once more on this amazing job! :D

Ber

Add Background/Slideshow
Great Baziel!

I will contaxct dubiel, possibily copy and paste the message I sent you and see what can be done... although I am afraid that to be able to edit the page's CSS styles and others I would have to be ranked as an admin, I hope that won't be a problem but if it's not possible I would completely understand.

I just realised you live in London, that sounds great mate... we're almost neighbours cause I live in the south of the city! maybe we should share some beers sometime as none of my mates really gets LoK here hah!

Regards.

References (the hell of my own making :P)
Hi Baz. :)

Just dropping in to pick your brain on something: working on the Kain and timelines articles has forced me to the realisation that adhering to our (my) current referencing system for the games is, at least in my experience, taking up more time to implement on big articles than it does to write quality content itself. Waaay more time, in fact. Which in my book means they're ultimately becoming an impediment.

What I'm talking about specifically is the system where we grab specific quotes from the games, italicise them, add a transcript link, etc (not the other citations for websites and things, which I think are ok). In other words, these:


 *  Raziel: "Your fatalism is tiresome, Kain." // Kain: "– and profoundly ingrained, Raziel. You must understand, our presence here doesn’t alter history. You and I meet here because we are compelled to – we have always met here. History is irredeemable. Drop a stone into a rushing river – the current simply courses around it and flows on as if the obstruction were never there.  You and I are pebbles, Raziel, and have even less hope of disrupting the time-stream. The continuum of history is simply too strong, too resilient." Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2. (Eidos Interactive). PlayStation 2. (October 31, 2001) Transcript.

I don't know if you think similarly, but I can imagine we'd both work much quicker without dealing with these. Having to add hundreds of them on a page, making sure you're not duplicating yourself and making sure formatting is correct, URL is correct, so on and so on... it's becoming taxing, as I'm sure you probably know yourself from doing it again and again on 200 BO2 articles. Every time I saw you finish referencing a big article, I winced, saying "Jesus, that must have taken him hours". That would not really be a problem, if only there were evidence that the references were doing the articles any good. On the contrary, though, I don't know that anyone actually uses them, and I could see an argument that the huge walls of copy-pasted text in the reference boxes scare people away and are inelegant.

From the beginning, I thought this particular referencing system was a bit over-the-top: offhand, I can't actually name another wiki or website which goes to such lengths to give the exact quote for every single little piece of information, and I knew it would take an unreasonable amount of time to apply the long citations to every article. But one of the reasons why I deliberately began to use them was because I expected we'd have serious reputation problems to overcome in the beginning, given the original crap quality of the site when we took over - the crazily-detailed citations helped to state "we are not going to brook wild fan theories or BS here any more, we are serious, and the games are our main source". By now, though, I think the site has evolved to the stage where copying, poor quality and misinformation are no longer anyone's concern - just incompleteness.

So if you agree, I think the time has come for me to simplify my draconian quote-citing system a bit. Since I recently started mapping out the chapters dividing up each LoK game, here's a proposal. Say we're quoting something from the Sebastian battle in BO2:


 *  Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2 - Chapter 6: The Nexus Stone. Crystal Dynamics. Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen 2. (Eidos Interactive). PlayStation 2. (March 19, 2002) Transcript.

...and that's that. If quoting something like a weapon description:


 *  Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain - miscellaneous dialogue. Silicon Knights / Crystal Dynamics. Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain. (Crystal Dynamics). PlayStation. (November 15, 1996)

For each Chapter article, I'd add a full transcript from the level and allow the reader to figure out exactly where whatever specific detail was given. Would also be transcripts of miscellaneous and deleted dialogue. One link to these pages in the references, simple as that. No clunky quotes. This is how people cite things when they want to stay sane, I should've realised years ago. :P

What do you think of this idea? If you're in agreement, I don't expect you to start revising every article that has the original style of references, of course. I'd do that myself (gradually). Let me know. --Dubiel 20:07, July 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Excellent. Tried uploading a sample transcript of a scene at Chapter 1: Infiltrate the Stronghold. It's not too complicated to transfer them here, and I think I could make it look elegant by using the switcher system at the Timelines article (swapping between scenes per chapter), or alternatively we could, as you say, simply use the external link to NR in each reference. What I think would be necessary at least, either way, is ten new pages, two for each game's miscellaneous and deleted dialogue - because we can't attribute, say, the short dialogue for the Human Citadel to a certain chapter, nor is there any external page out there with all the deleted dialogue for SR1 to link to. That's why I sort of lean toward the full transcription idea, all-or-nothing style, but if you think it's best to leave the bulk of the content at NR, that's fine too. --Dubiel 19:51, July 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Did a little work on a chapter-based referencing system using templates, which I applied already to the Mortanius article and some of the timelines stuff. From doing that much alone, it seems so much quicker and easier than dragging text from Nosgothic Realm around. I tried rigging one up for the BO1 Prima guide, and currently it goes even further than your suggestion and doesn't specify chapter or page number (I'd argue that that's alright - it's how Ardeth handled these materials at DC). Sound ok? It takes only a minute to edit the template, in any case, so if there's a detail we need to change, that can be edited at any time and it'll apply globally on the site. --Dubiel 22:32, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

CSS
No problem. It should be easy to fix, but I need access to a different browser from my other computer. I'll have it amended ASAP. There are a few old glitches like that in the .css script from way back, mainly because it was a bit rushed and I was completely incompetent when I put it together :P, but I have a bit more understanding of the syntax now. --Dubiel (talk) 19:31, August 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've (taken from another wiki) found a rudimentary fix; the background will now display blue and changes are visible. The whole Wikia.css stylesheet is a mess of disorganised code and really needs a rewrite if I'm to be honest, but at least it does its job properly, so I'll put that off for now while we work on content. --Dubiel (talk) 14:45, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

Related Videos
Hi Baz. :) Just in case you miss it, I got a message from a Wikia staffer asking whether or not we would like a "Related Videos Module" feature enabled here, with a brief explanation. He will not force it upon us and respects whatever our reply is. I believe it is yet another gimmick, and my personal thoughts are here, but I've let him know that we want your opinion before he's to consider any kind of decision made. --Dubiel (talk) 20:07, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Promotion
You know I've been sceptical of Wikia's new features, but this one does sound quite pleasant so it's no problem with me. If the reboot is announced we'll inevitably have a barrage of new viewers (which is why I'm in mild overdrive to finish those "core articles", in case that happens). The summary you wrote looks lovely. I would maybe change two things: perhaps Kain before Raziel (you know... for posterity :P) and decapitalize "undead"; otherwise awesome. If you're short of extra images, let me know - this for instance is a big file, but an excellent resource. --Dubiel (talk) 12:06, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Baz! First, so sorry again for another unscheduled decrease in activity. My passion to keep contributing has actually increased, but September's often a fairly rough month for me in real life, with 9 to 5 university hours usually ambushing me. I'll be continuously trying to keep drafting articles anyway behind-the-scenes, though it may be a little while before I'm back to full speed and all that. Promise I'll try to finish Raziel this year if I can!

Regarding chapter dialogue, well, I'm baffled at the amount of incredible work you've done transcribing all of that stuff over here. I'm disappointed in myself for not noticing sooner, actually. Just as a bit of background which I didn't mention: the "tab" system I had used on the first few articles (and the one you've been using) was just a test run by me to see if that would look nice, but what I was ultimately intending to use as a standard for all transcripts was what I ended up with in Chapter 1: Welcome to Hell and Chapter 2: Seeking Revenge. Reason I changed it a bit was because I thought the tabs bar tended to turn out cluttered and unsightly, with too many tabs to sort through to find a pertinent quote. So I resized the text down, laid everything out in sections but with no tabs, and altered the colouring to look a bit cleaner. The only article to use the tabs template would thus, at least as of yet, be "Timelines".

I don't know if it's worth going back and changing all the transcripts you made to conform to that format, or vice versa, but just know that (either way) I volunteer to be the one to do it, 'cause I can't fathom how you transferred all that stuff over here so quickly and efficiently. Seriously good show, mate.

Regarding SR2 and misc dialogue. Haha, no, haven't seen the SR2 guide at all! If I'd known it was properly split up into nice, balanced segments like that, I would've used them from the beginning. So, yep, definitely - I think we should revise our chapter list and reference templates to suit those. I made do with the current 20 from the Dark Chronicle chapter names since I didn't know there were any other official divisors, but that would have left us with a few ridiculous, tiny walkthrough sections for chapters like C2-C3 (i.e. "walk over to the mural of Janos", haha) and others with ridiculously huge ones (like The Ruined Aerie). So this is great news to me. I have no idea what's in the SR1 guide either, but I gathered that it's fairly mediocre and threadbare.

What I was thinking was that miscellaneous dialogue for all five games only encompasses things like weapon/armor/spell descriptions, enemy taunts and that (for SR2 specifically I guess it would be just the enemy taunts and the Elder God's random warnings when you swim past him, and maybe the outtakes). If there were any dialogue in the Lost City or the Lighthouse, it would belong there too. Stuff that just can't explicitly be attributed to the storyline or a certain chapter. On the other hand I wouldn't include vista points or mandatory cutscenes, because the assumption is that these are all triggered and all belong to the chapter you encounter them in. I may be getting tangled up in my own semantics here (and slightly knackered and nonsensical tonight anyway), guess the best way to illustrate what I mean would be to formulate an example page... but generally, if it's an event going on in the main story, I would put it on a chapter article.

That might sort of explain it slightly, but absolutely no worries if it makes no sense - I'll clarify properly tomorrow when I'm more lucid. Take care man, and I'll try to get something done or written this coming week. --Dubiel (talk) 23:34, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

Screenshots
When I was uploading the bonus material images, I realised a bit too late that there was overlap between their filenames and the manually-captured ones (completely stupid of me, because I now recall I took that filenaming template from the SR2 category in the first place!). I finished adding them anyway so that we'd have at least one version of every cutscene for the chapter articles, but like you say this overwrote the old ones for Renunciation and Full Circle (and probably one or two other scenes as well). They can still easily be retrieved, so my plan was to soon reupload either the bonus material or manual captures under a different filename.

But maybe we should discuss that, because I'm not sure what to do. By far I prefer the screencaps to the bonus material images, but we're missing quite a few cutscenes among them. You certainly shouldn't be expected to play through SR2 again and capture the remaining scenes, but on the other hand I simply can't (only Defiance is properly supported by my rig) and I don't know that anyone else will in the near future. We do need a full gallery of these images to "finish" many articles... For the moment I wonder if we should just stick to using the bonus material ones, and revisit the manual screencaps for SR2 later? --Dubiel (talk) 18:24, October 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ahh, okay then, that changes things! Timeless and amazingly-written as it is, I'd thought it would be a pretty tough and boring process to go through SR2's story yet again (I find it painstaking enough for Defiance, and the cutscenes are served up on a silver platter in that game!) and wouldn't wish it on you. But if that's not the case and you don't mind, I've no qualms about going back and retrofitting the bonus materials into a different category. We'll use the screencaps in the chapter articles then. I'll go back and revert the overwrites ASAP. :) Sorry for the little mix-up and all... I should ask more often about these things before just jumping in. --Dubiel (talk) 22:59, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Christmas/mountains
Hi, mate, and a very merry Christmas. Really good to know you're well, and hope you enjoy yourself over the holidays. Like you told me once, there's no urgent need to clock in here or anything; the site is gradually getting secure enough to warrant a slower pace from us now and then, especially with the poor old Tomb Raider stooges at Crystal coming out with this sort of thing :) Amazing going with the ability series of articles, which are looking brilliant. For my part I'm planning to push forward the Circle of Nine article and get it up for New Year's Day. I had originally hoped to finish a character page, but it was a bit beyond me this month. I should forewarn that my own free time is going to start being massacred next year until around June 2013 - not that I won't be around, and I'm sure I'll get sucked back in if there's any big news, but major updates from me will probably be few until my classes are done, especially "core" stuff. That gives me a chance to fill in the small Terms articles.

About the Mountains (and Canyons), yes, this is an odd one. I have drawn from the Prima guides when there's no other source with a useful name for a place (like House of the Dollmaker and the Ruined Land). In this case however I'd advocate ignoring the SR2 one, 'cause we have the ring menu map which always highlights which region Raziel's in at any moment, and doesn't note mountains or canyons as "real" areas. I agree that "Nosgoth's northern mountains" is not really a defined location, but little more than a general term for everything past the Swamp - same sort of thing as "the road to Willendorf" or "the wasteland". I wouldn't even do an article on the mountains, because it's very tough to pin down what is or isn't encompassed by them (Dark Eden? Land of the Nemesis?). Even though it's a slight stretch, I think all the unnamed wilderness zones in SR2 can still can go under the Great Southern Lake, Pillars of Nosgoth, Swamp and Uschtenheim headings as the in-game map dictates.

This issue would also arise when we start tackling SR1, as there are a couple of hub areas such as the exit from the Underworld, the route to the Sarafan Tomb and the frozen wastes. SR1 is so wishy-washy with defining certain locations (with even the debugs being a very unhelpful trainwreck) that, to save headaches, I'm really just taking Tenaya and Shrykull's map as gospel there - it assigns nearly every single room in the game to one heading or another (so for instance the Stonehenge outside the Underworld would be considered part of the Sanctuary of the Clans area, and most of the frozen wastes fall under the Ruined City). It might be a tiny bit inaccurate to lump things in like that, but it fills up the bigger articles and prevents clutter, so I won't lose sleep over it.

Peace, and have a good one ;) --Dubiel (talk) 21:23, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Daunting taunting
Hi Baz... Uploaded the last bits of dialogue from SR2. There is just one problem to solve before we call that little data-bank complete - enemy taunts. I have no idea which taunts should be assigned to which enemies (it's been a while!). It's not too hard to roughly determine which ones are demons, Sarafan and mercenary army, but figuring out the exact enemy classes is not easy. I will comb YouTube playthroughs and try to work it out as best I can, but this might end up being a job for someone who can still actually run SR2... :P Anyway just to notify you if you haven't seen that. --Dubiel (talk) 15:35, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow that's brilliant work. You didn't have to tackle it immediately! I actually grabbed the GOG version of SR2 last night, finally, so I could make a start on it, but with keyboard only it isn't easy stuff. I suspected there might be some reuse in there, particularly among the lookalikes, but simply could not remember with any surety, so thanks. I'm sure they are structured at least roughly in classes already (most of SR2's audio files are quite orderly, thankfully), though figuring out where one ends and another begins is not easy. Everything from Simon Templeman seems to be demon hunters, Auberjonois is Sarafan and Michael does the vampire hunters, that I'm pretty sure of. But short of contacting Vampmaster to see if he might be able to make the job easier for us (as a longtime hacker, he may have a means of figuring out who says what by reverse engineering), I have no problem with perhaps grouping them by faction (demons, demon hunters, mercenary army, Sarafan) if it comes down to it. I've also tried out the new ModelEx on SR2 in a bid to try and create some overhead maps for each major area. Unfortunately it's not going to work out, at least not perfectly, because areas like the Sanctuary don't load properly. Whenever the kinks are ironed out of that version, I'll give it another go, however for now we are stuck with manual captures. --Dubiel (talk) 01:59, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Gave ModelEx another whirl just now, since everything in the Swamp loads perfectly. I made an attempt at compiling the whole early history Swamp together, the main problem being one of scale as you can certainly tell. Shrykull encountered the same trouble with his work on the Nosgothic Realm SR1 map: ModelEx doesn't render the levels such that they're all in the same aspect ratio, instead it just spits out the area and lets you do the dirty work. I didn't resize any of the material in this image - it's unadulterated - but quite obviously a few rooms are the incorrect size. Great job experimenting with the Sanctuary... it is a surprise to hear it actually crashes the game at a height. Now, even if huge places like Janos' Retreat and the Lake don't play up in that way, I'd say it would still be a living hell on earth to go into the game itself, enter each room and try to align that camera at a 90 degree overhead angle properly (I've just tried it myself in various Sarafan Stronghold rooms and it is not amusing). Thing about ModelEx is that it has a handy functionality to crop away the roof of rooms, i.e. that spire you mention, which isn't available otherwise. The game also applies a bit of a fish-eye perspective which could hinder the layout... I would love to do a full set of overhead maps, but might want to find the most elegant solution before we start going over every area. I have a couple of ideas, but ModelEx is the safest bet so I'll probably start by catching Vampmaster's ear and seeing if he thinks a fix is in the pipeline. --Dubiel (talk) 23:21, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Facebook updates
Certainly, I definitely encourage that. The page can get a bit dry with nothing but article updates (and we might need the momentum; I won't be back to full speed here until the end of summer). While the focus is series news and site updates, I don't have any problem with just posting up curiosities on the Facebook page now and then - anything that's interesting. For example, the Combine OverWiki does an excellent job of balancing these things, in my opinion. As long as we stick to using primarily official images, adhering to Fair Use, we should be fine. Would avoid uploading any fan art unless we have explicit permission though. --Dubiel (talk) 18:10, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Chat
I completely understand. I am kind of the same way about my research. I apologize for any future "complications" that may arise from the idea I put out. Please forgive me. Soul Warrior (talk) 22:12, March 1, 2013 (UTC) Soul Warrior

howdy Baziel Liquid speaker (talk) 12:00, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

nothin in particular i need help with, Baziel. just igured I'd drop in here and offer some of my editing and filling in some of the blanks that seem to be left on a few pages. Liquid speaker (talk) 19:34, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

History category
Hi Baz,

Sorry to bug you, but just wanted a second opinion on something – While working to expand a couple of the "events" articles, I encountered a concern – when writing the article on the vampire-Sarafan war, I tried to incorporate as much of the wording and content as I could from the battle of Meridian page, and now realise I've pretty much incorporated the whole thing, the only major difference being that it deals with the scope of the whole war as opposed to the battle. I'm now struggling to think of even one paragraph's worth of particularly unique things to say about the battle of Meridian which hasn't already been transferred to the war article. We have duplicates, essentially. Would you mind if I were to consider this an impromptu merge, and retire the battle of Meridian article which you wrote? I don't anticipate that I will cause more of the same kind of overlap when reviewing any of the other History articles, though something a little bit similar is happening now with raising of the lieutenants (originally the thought was that it would cover just the raising, but it's now encompassing the unnamed hundred-year war between the empire and the humans. We didn't have a discrete article for that, though). --LoK-Aevum (talk) 22:34, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

With the way I tend to write "Role" sections these days, as if sort of relaying a fable or a tale, I try to pull in as much relevant stuff as possible such that everything (within reason) makes self-contained sense for a reader, as a kind of narrative, without even having to browse other pages. That's why I end up straying into backstory info at the start or dipping into follow-up info for the end, to give maximum context. So whenever we get around to a final pass of those two articles, I bet they will encompass those extra things and more. If you noticed with Raziel's resurrection, I gave that a special honourific category – "events of SR1" – and I'm thinking purification of Kain would likewise probably be "events of Defiance", so might even end up spanning what Kain did in Nosgoth's early history. I am still experimenting a bit with best practices, though. --LoK-Aevum (talk) 23:36, August 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thank you very much man. Don't give another thought to the e-mail stuff – no urgency at all, and aside from RL business, I have plenty of overdue articles to be getting on with here in any case :).

SR2 terms
Heya Baz,


 * Gates: Yep definitely, I couldn't tell you how or why I overlooked these in the first run of cataloguing, but there's no good reason why I should've. I may have tentatively decided that it could come under the scope of the doors page, but in my opinion presently, that's not the case. Definitely would go with gates (matches "phase through gates"), maybe with barriers or bars as "aliases" for the term to be noted in the lead. As usual the subject matter probably shouldn't move to encompass gates beyond the interactive phasable ones though, or else it could end up insustainably big. Btw I think this should be able to encompass the Mist Form-applicable openings and cracks in walls in BO1, as well as those in the SR games.


 * Shadow Bridge activation plates: No problem, go for it. Again just an issue of my not being quite as thorough as I could've been on the initial listing of terms. The list of terms stubs really isn't comprehensive, especially when it comes to interactive things from SR1, SR2, and BO2 – I was mostly relying on memory and your own list from your userpage when I whipped it together.


 * Engraved stone: I have a pretty robust opinion on this. Initially I was thinking it's not worth the article if it appears only once in one room or the like, but then again we've got soul altar and Fire Plinth which really are not significantly different. Despite having given it some thought, I'm still not sure what the protocol on the more minor terms should be to be honest; I'd say no worries with creating a new article as long as you feel there's enough to say on the topic. As long as it's interactive/scripted then it should be fair game, so essentially trust your judgement is my advice for this one.


 * Light Bridges: If they're consistently defined as "light bridges" in the Prima guide then I've got no objection to giving them a unique article, even though they're only in the Retreat. Technically, again, the exact same circumstances enjoyed by the Fire Plinth (arguably they even deserve an article of their own more than the plinth does, if they're plural).

Er, so that would be "sure thing x4" in shorthand :) I'm gonna touch base with Ardeth during this week and keep trying to flesh out the interface for the moment. Hope it will eventually do us proud when I'm done with it. My best, --LoK-Aevum (talk) 22:13, August 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, as I see it, sealed doors ought to play a bit of an all-purpose role for a fair few of these things. I'm thinking it will want to cover the rare few SR1 Reaver doors (Necropolis, Silenced Cathedral) as well as those from SR2/Defiance, and also the SR1 Drowned Abbey door operable by telekinesis. Terms (or concepts, or any dumping ground for miscellanea on a wiki) is a tricky category to deal with in a formulaic and sensible way, but I think we're doing it right, important interactive things only as a general rule. You know yourself – you just end up having to consider is it worth creating a page with a few lines devoted to this once-off mural or that minor detail, or would it better serve the readers to integrate it into the Chapter or Location page, and have those be all that they can be, rather than split up very small things just for formality's sake. Related topic, I've had a thought recently that we might eventually (and I'm talking, as in, if we ever end up with spare time and little left to do here) trial a new category for Themes in the series, ala Lostpedia, to cater to the more literary aspects of the series – things like storytelling devices and influences such as fate/fatalism, free will, antihero, Joseph Campbell, morality, good and evil, propaganda, T. S. Eliot, enlightenment, hope, Gnosticism, sacrifice, blah blah blah. These feel to me as though they're rather important and worth unique articles, but currently lack a dedicated place and aren't exactly in sync with the more, em,  Terms category as it stands. For future reference, I will compile the potential articles on my user page (just as text, not as redlinks). I don't intend to get at all carried away with that idea though at this inappropriate stage, as we still have more than enough blanks to fill before inducing new ones. --LoK-Aevum (talk) 00:13, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Cut content/locations
As far as I've tended to categorise things, so far cut content is really a section reserved for "wholly cut content". If a location is in a game, but only part of it is cut from that same game, I approach it as if it still belongs to "core locations" where that game is concerned. Now, if that cut part had an article of its own – for instance Ruins in the Swamp – then the subject is indeed 100% cut and its article would go in cut content. But in the instance we have, I'd lean towards deeming the Ruins and the Uschtenheim cliffs more "minor" cut material, and would consign them to the Background sections. In the same vein, for instance, Avernus Cathedral in Defiance wouldn't warrant the cut content label, even though we know it's not all there. This is just a matter of practicality: it's very hard to draw an indisputable line as to whether this thing or that thing belongs in the cut content category unless we go binary about it, is it cut or isn't it. One could argue Kain is partially a cut character in SR1 because a third of his role was scrapped, and so on... The precedent I've been using kills those arguments before they can even begin. To balance out this practice, I intended to use sections like this one to give a very direct overview of all notable cut material in a game, individual articles or no. --LoK-Aevum (talk) 19:24, August 28, 2013 (UTC)